Clinton campaign demonstrates repeated incompetence - Page 6

xiphos · 02-23-2008, 09:15 AM

OK, all the black people are saying that "Oh, they just don't like Obama because he's black" and all that. But haven't people noticed that black people vote for Obama on an 8-1 ratio? Reverse rasicm? I think blacks are more racist than whites. I bet if you went to a random black person's house and you asked them what Obama wants to do, they would either not know or just say "Change." Well, what kind of change does our country need? Is there people dying on the streets? No, so I guess we don't need that much change. Most of the "Change" we need is the individual person's fault. And about the war, SUPPORT IT. People come up to me ALL THE TIME and say "well you don't know anybody in the war" Obviously they don't know me. 3 of my cousins are in Iraq right now. They always say that most of the soldiers want to stay in Iraq to defend America. Also, if we pull the troops out, do you think the terrorists will get mad because America attacked them and won? Oh ya i almost forgot. There is no war! Iraq surrendered did they not? America created the 1st democracy in the middle east. Hopefully the surrounding countries will follow and do the same.

so to sum it all up, VOTE JOHN MCCAIN!

Griff · 02-23-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiphos

...so to sum it all up, VOTE JOHN MCCAIN!

I can't see doing that X. We are into our 16th straight year of insane POTUS. I just don't like the idea of continuing that streak. That he gave up his mental health serving is admirable but he is still bat shit crazy and should therefor never carry the nuclear football.

DanaC · 02-23-2008, 10:13 AM

One of the really interesting points raised in Sicko, is the way 'socialised medicine' has become a bogeyman in American politics. It's something I find very difficult to understand. You (lookout)don't trust your government to run such a system, yet you do trust insurance companies: insurance companies which routinely try to deny their responsibility to pay for treatment. I saw a website, think it was from a link here, about how to fight insurance companies for what you need. It focussed on the way the companies would try to deny when they have no right to...the advice was good, it told you what to say and how to say it...but you shouldn't have to fight for routine medical care.

You say emergency treatment is available to all. Emergency treatment doesn't cover such things as chemo, oxygen for those with lung conditions, cortisones for those with chronic skin conditions etc, etc.

In Sicko Moore examined some attitudes towards socialised medicine, and looked at the way the medical system in the UK and Canada has been portrayed in America as a failed system. Yet the same people who think socialised medicine means gurneys in the corridor and year long waits for treatment don't seem to percieve the massive health inequalities which exist on their own doorstep.

Many millions of Americans have no health insurance. Yes, if they break their leg they can get emergency treatment (followed by a bill and chased by debt collectors), but what about when they develop diabetes, cancer or goiter problems? What about the routine medical care they need for chronic conditions like asthma, eczema, psoriasis or emphacaema? Unless they are amongst the rather small group of people who qualify for medicaid, those people cannot access such routine care.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: health care provided by private insurance companies, or private hospitals are blinded by the need for profit. Their main responsibility is not to their patienmts it is to their shareholders. The insurance companies have a goal: to take in as much money as they can and to pay out as little as they can. How can that be reconciled with the patients' need?

[eta] again this is something I've said before, but I think it's worth repeating: I find it very hard to understand how the richest country on this planet, the one with the most resources, both physical and human, can have so many millions of its citizens living in fear of illness because they are unable to access medical care should the worst befall them. Third world countries have a decent excuse for such a situation, the wealthiest nation on earth, in my opinion, has not. Don'y mistake this as an attempt to bash America. I believe that America represents much of what is best in the modern world. But it also represents some of what is worst. The willingness to allow fellow citizens to languish in distress, uncared for and untended because they do not have adequate finances, or the right job, falls into the latter category. Even for those who have played by the rules and done everything your system requires (Like Brianna) there are still monumental gaps in coverage.

Being sick, whether just dealing with pain or distress, or actually fearing for your survival is hard enough. Having to cope with a massive financial burden, fighting for every bit of coverage you get, or simply having no access at all to the treatment which will cure or ameliorate your condition must be appalling.

Undertoad · 02-23-2008, 10:51 AM

Some of your complaints are actually addressed by Medicaid.

I don't know the exact number but I have heard that government pays for about 50% of all health care in the US. Shrug. So instead of a market problem, it becomes a political problem. Shrug. Maybe that would be better.

The gap problem is in the middle class... as always

We don't know all of Bri's situation, but we do know that she is going to survive a massive veiny tumor through innovations in treatment developed in the U.S. in the last 20 years. That is the ideal outcome, and whatever we decide, we must protect that kind of innovation at all costs. Free cures are no good when they don't exist.

Undertoad · 02-23-2008, 10:58 AM

Oh and we also think that Bri is receiving treatment before source of funds is guaranteed. We have heard they are treating her, but we have not heard that she has sold her house.

Trilby · 02-23-2008, 10:59 AM

It is. Appalling. My condition could never be treated in an ER situation---"call the ambulance! I need chemo!" I doubt that would happen.

Along with all the physical body-image disturbance (plenty---you all should see my eyes and skin---ungodly!) the pain, the fatigue (huge), the depression, the fear of death comes the knowledge that I am going to be completely financially ruined.

Lookout--what if there'd been no truck to sell? What if you had been poor during those times with your wife and son? What if all of your furniture was made of particle wood and you were two months behind on the utilities? Would your wife or son be here?

OK. I"m done. I'm just feeling v. depressed today as the skin on my face looks like a road map, the whites of my eyes are yellow-ish and bloodshot and my fingernails have finally succumbed to the chemo; they are yellowish and thick and peeling apart. I have never felt so unlovely in my entire life and that includes the akward 'teen' years, too.

Trilby · 02-23-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Oh and we also think that Bri is receiving treatment before source of funds is guaranteed. We have heard they are treating her, but we have not heard that she has sold her house.

That is quite true. I am receiving treatment and funds have NOT been guaranteed. I live in a house that is "mine" in principle but not "mine" on paper. Another member of my immediate family holds the deed, not me. If they sue, there are no assetts for them to get (Unless they want my 1997 Buick; and they might want it).

I am making monthly payments to my oncologists office; the financial co-ordinater there said as long as I do NOT miss even one month of payment, they won't turn me over to a collection agency. I DO have collection agencies, associated with the cost of this care, after me. My mailbox is crammed full of bills daily. The cost of the radiologist's reading, the labs, the cost of the ER docs and hospital when I have been to the ER (once for pain, once for hyperventilation that lasted five hours, once for shortness-of-breath---ya'll have NO idea how hard chemo is to endure--And I'm not exactly the poster child for mental health/strength of spirit and courage, am I?) So---I see a psychologist, a therapist (a breast CA specialist) and my pain management doctor! Every little thing has a price tag attached.

What would you do if you were me? (i.e. "Poor")

lookout123 · 02-23-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Lookout--what if there'd been no truck to sell? What if you had been poor during those times with your wife and son? What if all of your furniture was made of particle wood and you were two months behind on the utilities? Would your wife or son be here?

I was poor. I had moved across country, changed careers. Had no equity in my house, only had bedroom and living room furniture. At that time we had a $120/month food budget. I lived on peanut butter sandwiches and tuna before all this shit hit the fan. I had JUST gotten a good job after leaving my previously shitty one. That truck was the only think I had of value. I fell behind on my house, and every single bill I had. I had to cringe every time the phone rang because I knew I would have to explain to another bill collector what was happening and pray that give me another 2 weeks before shutting off my electricity. If I hadn't had the truck to sell I don't know what I would have done. If we had lost the baby I would have been gutted.

I still don't want nationalized, tax paid healthcare. It isn't the government's job to take care of every little issue I have. National defense, trade, etc? yes. healthcare? no.

Dana - Insurance companies may suck but you can deal with them. they are businesses. If you don't like what you have you can fire them and hire another. Try doing that with nationalized healthcare.

DanaC · 02-23-2008, 12:17 PM

What if you can;t hire one in the first place?

lookout123 · 02-23-2008, 12:20 PM

we do have coverage for those folks. medicare, medicaid, and every state has their own welfare type medical system. In Arizona it is called ACCHS. no you don't have to be dirt poor to qualify.

Trilby · 02-23-2008, 12:41 PM

Insurance co. today are being very, very, VERY careful of who they decide to cover. Many people are told, "sorry, you don't qualify." so you can't just "decide" to fire one and hire another---especially if you have an on-going or previous condition!

I'm not trying to change your mind, lookout. I'm just pointing out my dilemmas.

lookout123 · 02-23-2008, 12:45 PM

i know brianna, and believe me that i'm not as cold hearted as this makes me sound. i really do wish that A) you weren't dealing with your illness, and B) if you had to that you had 100% coverage for the best care in the world. unfortunately neither A or B applies, but I still don't believe that the US taxpayers/government are the right group to provide care.

DanaC · 02-23-2008, 01:36 PM

If the insurance company won't cover you and you don't qualify for medicaid, who is the best group to provide care?

Undertoad · 02-23-2008, 01:48 PM

The doctors?

DanaC · 02-23-2008, 02:05 PM

Who pays for it? How many people are treated for free unless it is emergency treatment?

02-23-2008, 10:13 AM	#78
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	One of the really interesting points raised in Sicko, is the way 'socialised medicine' has become a bogeyman in American politics. It's something I find very difficult to understand. You (lookout)don't trust your government to run such a system, yet you do trust insurance companies: insurance companies which routinely try to deny their responsibility to pay for treatment. I saw a website, think it was from a link here, about how to fight insurance companies for what you need. It focussed on the way the companies would try to deny when they have no right to...the advice was good, it told you what to say and how to say it...but you shouldn't have to fight for routine medical care. You say emergency treatment is available to all. Emergency treatment doesn't cover such things as chemo, oxygen for those with lung conditions, cortisones for those with chronic skin conditions etc, etc. In Sicko Moore examined some attitudes towards socialised medicine, and looked at the way the medical system in the UK and Canada has been portrayed in America as a failed system. Yet the same people who think socialised medicine means gurneys in the corridor and year long waits for treatment don't seem to percieve the massive health inequalities which exist on their own doorstep. Many millions of Americans have no health insurance. Yes, if they break their leg they can get emergency treatment (followed by a bill and chased by debt collectors), but what about when they develop diabetes, cancer or goiter problems? What about the routine medical care they need for chronic conditions like asthma, eczema, psoriasis or emphacaema? Unless they are amongst the rather small group of people who qualify for medicaid, those people cannot access such routine care. I've said it before and I'll say it again: health care provided by private insurance companies, or private hospitals are blinded by the need for profit. Their main responsibility is not to their patienmts it is to their shareholders. The insurance companies have a goal: to take in as much money as they can and to pay out as little as they can. How can that be reconciled with the patients' need? [eta] again this is something I've said before, but I think it's worth repeating: I find it very hard to understand how the richest country on this planet, the one with the most resources, both physical and human, can have so many millions of its citizens living in fear of illness because they are unable to access medical care should the worst befall them. Third world countries have a decent excuse for such a situation, the wealthiest nation on earth, in my opinion, has not. Don'y mistake this as an attempt to bash America. I believe that America represents much of what is best in the modern world. But it also represents some of what is worst. The willingness to allow fellow citizens to languish in distress, uncared for and untended because they do not have adequate finances, or the right job, falls into the latter category. Even for those who have played by the rules and done everything your system requires (Like Brianna) there are still monumental gaps in coverage. Being sick, whether just dealing with pain or distress, or actually fearing for your survival is hard enough. Having to cope with a massive financial burden, fighting for every bit of coverage you get, or simply having no access at all to the treatment which will cure or ameliorate your condition must be appalling. Last edited by DanaC; 02-23-2008 at 10:25 AM.

02-23-2008, 10:59 AM	#81
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	It is. Appalling. My condition could never be treated in an ER situation---"call the ambulance! I need chemo!" I doubt that would happen. Along with all the physical body-image disturbance (plenty---you all should see my eyes and skin---ungodly!) the pain, the fatigue (huge), the depression, the fear of death comes the knowledge that I am going to be completely financially ruined. Lookout--what if there'd been no truck to sell? What if you had been poor during those times with your wife and son? What if all of your furniture was made of particle wood and you were two months behind on the utilities? Would your wife or son be here? OK. I"m done. I'm just feeling v. depressed today as the skin on my face looks like a road map, the whites of my eyes are yellow-ish and bloodshot and my fingernails have finally succumbed to the chemo; they are yellowish and thick and peeling apart. I have never felt so unlovely in my entire life and that includes the akward 'teen' years, too. Last edited by Trilby; 02-23-2008 at 11:09 AM. Reason: spelling!

02-23-2008, 12:20 PM	#85
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	we do have coverage for those folks. medicare, medicaid, and every state has their own welfare type medical system. In Arizona it is called ACCHS. no you don't have to be dirt poor to qualify. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-23-2008, 12:45 PM	#87
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	i know brianna, and believe me that i'm not as cold hearted as this makes me sound. i really do wish that A) you weren't dealing with your illness, and B) if you had to that you had 100% coverage for the best care in the world. unfortunately neither A or B applies, but I still don't believe that the US taxpayers/government are the right group to provide care. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-23-2008, 09:15 AM	#76
xiphos Bryan. Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 63	OK, all the black people are saying that "Oh, they just don't like Obama because he's black" and all that. But haven't people noticed that black people vote for Obama on an 8-1 ratio? Reverse rasicm? I think blacks are more racist than whites. I bet if you went to a random black person's house and you asked them what Obama wants to do, they would either not know or just say "Change." Well, what kind of change does our country need? Is there people dying on the streets? No, so I guess we don't need that much change. Most of the "Change" we need is the individual person's fault. And about the war, SUPPORT IT. People come up to me ALL THE TIME and say "well you don't know anybody in the war" Obviously they don't know me. 3 of my cousins are in Iraq right now. They always say that most of the soldiers want to stay in Iraq to defend America. Also, if we pull the troops out, do you think the terrorists will get mad because America attacked them and won? Oh ya i almost forgot. There is no war! Iraq surrendered did they not? America created the 1st democracy in the middle east. Hopefully the surrounding countries will follow and do the same. so to sum it all up, VOTE JOHN MCCAIN!

02-23-2008, 10:51 AM	#79
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Some of your complaints are actually addressed by Medicaid. I don't know the exact number but I have heard that government pays for about 50% of all health care in the US. Shrug. So instead of a market problem, it becomes a political problem. Shrug. Maybe that would be better. The gap problem is in the middle class... as always We don't know all of Bri's situation, but we do know that she is going to survive a massive veiny tumor through innovations in treatment developed in the U.S. in the last 20 years. That is the ideal outcome, and whatever we decide, we must protect that kind of innovation at all costs. Free cures are no good when they don't exist.

02-23-2008, 10:58 AM	#80
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh and we also think that Bri is receiving treatment before source of funds is guaranteed. We have heard they are treating her, but we have not heard that she has sold her house.

02-23-2008, 12:17 PM	#84
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	What if you can;t hire one in the first place?

02-23-2008, 12:41 PM	#86
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Insurance co. today are being very, very, VERY careful of who they decide to cover. Many people are told, "sorry, you don't qualify." so you can't just "decide" to fire one and hire another---especially if you have an on-going or previous condition! I'm not trying to change your mind, lookout. I'm just pointing out my dilemmas.

02-23-2008, 01:36 PM	#88
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	If the insurance company won't cover you and you don't qualify for medicaid, who is the best group to provide care?

02-23-2008, 01:48 PM	#89
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The doctors?

02-23-2008, 02:05 PM	#90
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Who pays for it? How many people are treated for free unless it is emergency treatment?

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