American Excess

[busterb]

I still have major doubts that illegal immigrants hurt the United States on a large scale because if they did, the borders would have been closed for a while now.

Do you really think this administration and big business gives a fuck about anything but the buck?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by busterb

Do you really think this administration and big business gives a fuck about anything but the buck?

That is what I meant by hurt our country on a large scale. Besides crime, which comes from poverty, all the arguments are either "they are criminals" or they waste too much money.

If we were losing money as a whole, the borders would have been closed a long time ago.

[lookout123]

Second, with the number of people coming over, there is obviously something wrong within the system that is encouraging Mexicans and other Latin Americans to come over here illegally.

Wait, other than the fact that they keep coming here illegally - why is the problem in their country my concern. If anything it should be their concern and they should stay there to fix it.

Complete deportation isn't going to happen. Attrition can happen. Strong border enforcement, employer sanctions, stiffer penalty for being caught here illegally will make the US less attractive for potential border jumpers. Those that are already here illegally didn't cross the border once to stay forever more - they cross the border to see their families quite frequently. Stronger Border enforcement will prevent them from coming back. Stiff employer sanctions will prevent them from getting jobs illegally - many will look elsewhere for work - they came here for the money in the first place remember? Stiffer penalties for being caught are necessary because little to nothing happens now. It is a no risk crime.

As far as the blowback that you are concerned about, I think it is overblown when put in the context of attrition rather than instantaneous deportation. Maybe, just maybe these people will decide to do something about the problems in their own countries rather than come here.

I see illegals every single day with my own eyes. I live with them all around me. That's life in the southwest.

[lookout123]

If we were losing money as a whole, the borders would have been closed a long time ago.

No, if large businesses were losing money as a whole the borders would have been closed.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Complete deportation isn't going to happen. Attrition can happen. Strong border enforcement, employer sanctions, stiffer penalty for being caught here illegally will make the US less attractive for potential border jumpers. Those that are already here illegally didn't cross the border once to stay forever more - they cross the border to see their families quite frequently. Stronger Border enforcement will prevent them from coming back. Stiff employer sanctions will prevent them from getting jobs illegally - many will look elsewhere for work - they came here for the money in the first place remember? Stiffer penalties for being caught are necessary because little to nothing happens now. It is a no risk crime.

These solutions make more sense, attacking the institutions instead of the reactions to them. I still think there is a deeper problem than this that has come with trade liberalization and the fact that companies that hire illegal aliens are doing it because it will allow them to make a bigger profit. Just like the migrants themselves, these companies are making rational decisions that support their best interest, capital.

If the problem with immigration is going to be solved, there will have to be focus on the real base problem, not the reactions, because every other solution will just fall flat on its face or create new problems that will have to solved in a decade or so.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

So as long as Minnesota raises the economic average, the border states and their southernmost municipalities can suck it, right? Because they are costing us money overall, even by the admission of the most immigration-friendly comptroller this side of the Mason-Dixon line.

Oh c'mon, you expect me to give you a lot of sympathy for this problem when you refuse to give sympathy for the migrants and their problems? Blaming the immigrants is not going to solve anything, the institutions that are creating the problems are the only way this can be solved correctly.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Maybe, just maybe these people will decide to do something about the problems in their own countries rather than come here.

Can you give any suggestions on how low-skilled workers can turn their economy around, or why there is a great incentive to work here instead of in Mexico?

[busterb]

Do you really think this administration and big business gives a fuck about anything but the buck?
No, if large businesses were losing money as a whole the borders would have been closed.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If we were losing money as a whole, the borders would have been closed a long time ago.

So as long as Minnesota raises the economic average, the border states and their southernmost municipalities can suck it, right? Because they are costing us money overall, even by the admission of the most immigration-friendly comptroller this side of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Oh c'mon, you expect me to give you a lot of sympathy for this problem when you refuse to give sympathy for the migrants and their problems? Blaming the immigrants is not going to solve anything, the institutions that are creating the problems are the only way this can be solved correctly.

That's a little presumptive, don't you think? That was the first post I've even made in this thread... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were still seething from your conversation with lookout. I have stated before in other threads that I would prefer for illegal immigrants to be assimilated into the social systems that they are benefitting from, i.e. an easier road to naturalization and paying taxes. I certainly recognize the flaws in the institutions, because I am directly affected by them on a daily basis. Your seven-point Poli Sci 101 essay aside, you still ultimately assert that they are not "hurting our economy" with the current state of affairs, and that is what I was responding to.

Pity does not change the fact that their overall monetary effect is currently negative for many communities. Deportation does not have to be the solution (I, for one, think it's impractical and unrealistic if nothing else) but that doesn't change the fact that there is a problem, and any solution requires more than the multi-generational (if not outright utopian) goal of 'improving the lives of people in other countries.'

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That's a little presumptive, don't you think? That was the first post I've even made in this thread... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were still seething from your conversation with lookout. I have stated before in other threads that I would prefer for illegal immigrants to be assimilated into the social systems that they are benefitting from, i.e. an easier road to naturalization and paying taxes. I certainly recognize the flaws in the institutions, because I am directly affected by them on a daily basis.

My fault then. I thought you were focusing on something else.

Your seven-point Poli Sci 101 essay aside, you still ultimately assert that they are not "hurting our economy" with the current state of affairs, and that is what I was responding to.

Immigrants are very good for the economy in some areas and hurtful in others, I realize that fact, but I would prefer having at least an idea of how helpful immigrants are in other areas because just cutting off sources without looking into them can be very dangerous.

Pity does not change the fact that their overall monetary effect is currently negative for many communities. Deportation does not have to be the solution (I, for one, think it's impractical and unrealistic if nothing else) but that doesn't change the fact that there is a problem, and any solution requires more than the multi-generational (if not outright utopian) goal of 'improving the lives of people in other countries.'

The problem I see is that there might be a correlation between what is happening economically in Mexico, immigration, and NAFTA. I still don't know enough about it to say for certain, but I have glanced into it and there seems to be similarities. That is one of the reasons for my harder stance. If it just came out of nowhere and the US did nothing to cause or worsen the problem, I would have a different viewpoint.

[lookout123]

Can you give any suggestions on how low-skilled workers can turn their economy around, or why there is a great incentive to work here instead of in Mexico?

They work here because of more money, less corruption, better and free medical care, and the knowledge nothing will happen if they get caught here. Makes sense. Eliminate the source of their jobs (punish employers), refuse all but true emergency medical care and report them to ICE when they do show up, and make real meaningful penalties for being caught here. Then fewer will feel the risk is worth it.

But remember - fixing the legal immigration system goes hand in hand with this.

The problem I see is that there might be a correlation between what is happening economically in Mexico, immigration, and NAFTA. I still don't know enough about it to say for certain, but I have glanced into it and there seems to be similarities. That is one of the reasons for my harder stance. If it just came out of nowhere and the US did nothing to cause or worsen the problem, I would have a different viewpoint.

Illegals were here long before NAFTA. It is not our job to make sure everyone in Mexico has solid employment and a big screen tv. Secure the borders, overhaul immigration and let them deal with their problems.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Illegals were here long before NAFTA. It is not our job to make sure everyone in Mexico has solid employment and a big screen tv. Secure the borders, overhaul immigration and let them deal with their problems.

I am aware of this, but it seems that there was a large increase of illegal immigration after NAFTA passed.

Illegal Immigrants are criminals but that doesn't mean that they are making immoral or irrational decisions. When a society is set up so the most rational decision is to break a law, you know there is a problem or flaw somewhere. Why do you think so many people in the inner city take up drug dealing instead of working at a minimum wage job? It is the most rational decision for them. The risks of drug dealing is much worth the extra money they will be making from it. $1000 a week is much better than $150 a week working full time in a job that very few people could possibly enjoy.

[lookout123]

Are you kidding me? You are actually going to argue that it is ok to deal drugs if you can make more money doing that than working hard for less money? I make pretty ok money right now, but I guarandamntee I kind double my income immediately if I choose to break a couple laws I'm not fond of, and I most likely wouldn't be caught. Would that be rational? Would that be moral? Would you condone that as being understandable?

[regular.joe]

Among the people who call for deporting all illegal aliens now, I wonder how many would think twice after paying $10.00 for a head of lettuce. Perhaps more, there are union dues to think about....

I'm reminded of the line from one of the star wars movies, "you must understand that you form a symbiotic relationship".

I think that when we start making decisions that are in the best interest of all concerned that we find the most success.

That's just sitting here having coffee this morning tho, check back this afternoon, I might be a little more hard line.

[lookout123]

Have you ever sped?

Yes, and when I was caught I paid the penalty for breaking that law. I paid the penalty when I re-registered late. I paid the penalty each and every time I've been found not to be in compliance with the law. When I was not in compliance with the law (committing a crime) I was indeed a criminal, make sense?

do you think we should categorize all illegal immigrants as criminals?

Uh, yes? What else would you call someone who lives each and every day intentionally breaking the law?

I don't think the majority of people believe the majority of illegal immigrants are "criminals", which implies deviant behavior and a propensity to break serious laws.

Criminal = someone breaking the law regardless of whether it is a "serious law". And while we're at it - could you list for me which laws we should enforce and which ones we shouldn't? Are some laws just suggestions? Requests? Ideals? Whether or not you agree with a law is irrelevent. If it is a law that is on the books you are responsible for complying or you breaking the law, committing a criminal act.

I think the issue most people have with their illegal status is that they do not pay into the 'system' (taxes) yet receive the benefits (medical care).

I have a problem with the fact that they are breaking the law by being here. They drive around getting into auto accidents uninsured. They drive down the quality of public education. The tax issue is only part of the story.

Regular.JoeAmong the people who call for deporting all illegal aliens now, I wonder how many would think twice after paying $10.00 for a head of lettuce. Perhaps more, there are union dues to think about....

Thanks for the hyperbole. There may very well be price inflation as the economy adjusts, but not to that extreme. The job isn't going to start paying $20/hour just because legal employees are now picking the produce. And unions- not so much. Low skill jobs in right to work states have ZERO chance of unionizing and driving up costs.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I have a problem with the fact that they are breaking the law by being here. They drive around getting into auto accidents uninsured. They drive down the quality of public education. The tax issue is only part of the story.

Believe "driving down the quality of public education" would be addressed with, hmmm... paying taxes. And they wouldn't be uninsured either if hmmm... they could get a license and insurance.

You claim rightouesness by saying, yes you've been caught speeding and have paid a fine. But has that stopped you from speeding? Be honest. How many times have you sped, versus how many times have you been caught? If you haven't turned yourself into the police and paid a fine for each and everytime you've sped, guess what - you're still a criminal. Just because you weren't caught doesn't mean you aren't guilty. Sounds like moral relativeism on your part to me.