Armed America

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

But I would really like to convince handgun owners, and only handgun owners, that the world would be a better place without handguns.

Well, I know your belief is sincerely held, but to be convincing you'll need better reasons, because the ones you have suck pretty badly. Furthermore, "the world would be a better place without handguns" is a misplaced argument, because--beyond being untrue--it's not a possible part of any solution set. Prohibitionism doesn't work in the real world. All such laws can possibly do is disarm the law-abiding.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Well, I know your belief is sincerely held, but to be convincing you'll need better reasons, because the ones you have suck pretty badly.

Some people still believe the earth is flat, too.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Furthermore, "the world would be a better place without handguns" is a misplaced argument, because--beyond being untrue--

That's your opinion, not fact.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

it's not a possible part of any solution set.

Anything is possible. People in Philadelphia don't drink directly from the Delaware River anymore, do they?

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Prohibitionism doesn't work in the real world.

Have I endorsed prohibitionism? No, just rational thought.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

All such laws can possibly do is disarm the law-abiding.

While I don't endorse this, that would make it easier for gun-using criminals to be erradicated. The pro-gun contingency seems to want to have a gun to protect them from potential attacks, right? If only criminals had handguns, they would esily be identified as potential attackers, and can be shot on sight. You'd like that, wouldn't you? You could change carreers, get into law enforcement, and finally get to kill someone - use that handgun you so intensely *need* to carry.

[lisa]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

If only criminals had handguns, they would esily be identified as potential attackers, and can be shot on sight. You'd like that, wouldn't you? You could change carreers, get into law enforcement, and finally get to kill someone - use that handgun you so intensely *need* to carry.

Oh, come on! Talk about resorting to personal attacks!

If you're gonna argue the point, use reasoned points, not personal slurs against someone.

"Finally get to kill someone..." Sheesh!

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

While I don't endorse this, that would make it easier for gun-using criminals to be erradicated. The pro-gun contingency seems to want to have a gun to protect them from potential attacks, right? If only criminals had handguns, they would esily be identified as potential attackers, and can be shot on sight. You'd like that, wouldn't you? You could change carreers, get into law enforcement, and finally get to kill someone - use that handgun you so intensely *need* to carry.

I keep bringing this up, I wonder if you read all the posts or don't think of it yourself.
Making a gun of your own, or for others is quite simple.
I get the impression that you think that if you outlaw something it will just go away.
Many of the guns that are used by gangs in the US come from China along with their drugs. The laws would only harm those who are law abiding citizens, making them criminals... they would accomplish nothing else.

BTW, Canada and a few other nations have as many guns per household as the US and lower murder and violent crime rates than the US and the UK. Guns are not the problem, it is a social consciousness/attitude problem.
My personal feeling is we have lost our commitment to the family.

Places in the US with more liberal carry laws like Texas have lower violent crime rates.

[Aliantha]

civ·i·lize Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[siv-uh-lahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lized, -liz·ing. to bring out of a savage, uneducated, or rude state; make civil; elevate in social and private life; enlighten; refine: Rome civilized the barbarians.

Here's another one:

civ·i·lized Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[siv-uh-lahyzd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
2. polite; well-bred; refined.
3. of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.
4. easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.



I guess some people are still barbarians, even if they do live in a civilized country.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Rome civilized the barbarians.

Intreresting example. The way you could tell who was a Roman citizen on the street was they were the only ones who were permitted to carry arms.

[Aliantha]

Yeah, and they were the ones with the army too....and the slaves.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Yeah, and they were the ones with the army too....and the slaves.

They're your exemplar, not mine.

[Aliantha]

And what's your point?

[Aliantha]

Oh...that last post was for you btw Maggie, just in case you couldn't figure that out.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

If only criminals had handguns, they would esily be identified as potential attackers, and can be shot on sight.

Do you acknowledge that this would require exponentially more police officers than we have right now?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Do you acknowledge that this would require exponentially more police officers than we have right now?

Naw, just wait them out. As they're identified, they're dead. It'll be a hunt of attrition.

[Shawnee123]

Eh, it was just a little tongue in cheek. I've heard much worse.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Spexxvet may actually have read Raging Against Self Defense on JPFO's website. He exhibits every one of the symptomatic patterns of thought as if he'd read the page and is now going down a checklist.

You'd like that, wouldn't you? You could change carreers, get into law enforcement, and finally get to kill someone - use that handgun you so intensely *need* to carry.

What will help Spexx become psychologically well adjusted? Precisely the thing he fears doing most -- and fears it so much he keeps it totally repressed: he must embrace the savagery that burns in his own heart, radiating through these fantasies of his (see above) about the gun and the gun people, and then find nondestructive outlets to express it. I can say from experience martial arts are one excellent way, as is SCA-type fighting/fencing with rattan swords; there is something so elemental about beating on somebody with a big ol' stick that it utterly satisfies any killer-ape urge you have. Thanks to the good armor the SCA wears, you can thrash the hell outta somebody and not hurt him, hardly a bruise. Meanwhile, and entirely in fairness, he's trying the same with you.

It's a rough and martial game, but in the process of exercising these killer faculties, the necessity of balancing them with civilized restraint becomes not only clear, but intensely desired by the practitioners of these violent arts also. The SCA, like the knights of old, speak of this simply as "chivalry," and this is clearly where all the ideals and ramifications of chivalry spring from.

Good soldiers in the combat arms, in particular the highly-trained SpecWar types, also find this balance.

Hunting game animals will also give outlet to this. Some, like the late Jeff Cooper, say that something life-and-death like hunting becomes through its seriousness something that is quite a sacrament -- Cooper has used that word -- and I suppose they have reason to. Personally, I'd have to shoot a few critters and get back to you.

But I would really like to convince handgun owners, and only handgun owners, that the world would be a better place without handguns.

Still subscribing to the Theory of the Evil Gun, I see. That subscription is how I know you're not rational on this topic. You've been getting the truth dinned into you from three different people who know each other only through the Cellar, and yet nothing do you learn. An anti-handgun view, Spexx, facilitates handgun crime, for the reason that the very same features of a handgun that make it attractive to commit crimes with also adapt the handgun as an efficacious defense against those very crimes. It then becomes a matter of who has a gun and who doesn't. You're asking me to be helpless in the face of a crime. That, Spexx, is pure, immoral, reprehensible and atrocious barbarism, and it is a barbarism I would not ever inflict upon you, yet you would afflict me with this atrocity?

Civilized? You? No. Not at bottom. But salvation is nonetheless at hand: see above.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Thank heavens London has become civilized and outlawed those evil guns.

Replacing rows of rundown high-rise flats and maisonettes are 2,000 new homes, a new sports centre, a new leisure centre and award-winning library, thanks to a £290m regeneration investment.

Peckham, which has tried much to shake off its mean streets image in the last decade, has once again hit the headlines for the wrong reasons.

Not too far from where Damilola bled to death, three people were killed and one seriously wounded in three separate attacks between last Saturday and Tuesday.

WHEN YOU OUTLAW GUNS, ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS.
Trite? Yes. Cliché? Yes. But it's still true.