Celebrity Atheists - Page 2

DanaC · 11-08-2006, 01:22 PM

That same logic could be applied to people who consider themselves 'Christians'. Accepted tenets of the Christian faith have generally been derived from christological debates between learned clerics and ecclesiastical figures across many centuries. Most Christians believe in a God, described to them in someone else's terms. Since they define themslves in terms of their faith, and their faith is derived from external definitions of previous generations' beliefs, how are they different from your description of atheists?

Flint · 11-08-2006, 01:23 PM

They're not. I agree with what you said.

DanaC · 11-08-2006, 01:32 PM

Then lets take it a step further:

The vast majority of people form their identity on the basis of belief-systems or cultural norms which are taught to them, or to which they are exposed, during certain crucial stages of their develpment, such as early childhood, late adolescence and early adulthood. Essentially, their sense of identity is based at some level on what others before them have believed or held to be 'true'.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 01:51 PM

That is also true, and I don't think it should be simply embraced without question.

DanaC · 11-08-2006, 01:56 PM

*nods*

In what way do you think people who have arrived at a position of atheism, have simply embraced it without question?

Flint · 11-08-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

In what way do you think people who have arrived at a position of atheism, have simply embraced it without question?

If, as I'm trying to determine, Atheism simply consists of opposing something which is specifically defined by an outside source, then even by not believing in what they describe, you are still embracing their definition, apparently without question. It just validates their faulty definition.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 01:57 PM

How can there be a list of "Celebrity Atheists" if it isn't a personal identity?

Happy Monkey · 11-08-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

How can there be a list of "Celebrity Atheists" if it isn't a personal identity?

Easy. If someone asks them what their religious beliefs are, and they have none, they say "atheist". Now they're on the list.

Quote:

If, as I'm trying to determine, Atheism simply consists of opposing something which is specifically defined by an outside source, then even by not believing in what they describe, you are still embracing their definition, apparently without question. It just validates their faulty definition.

If there were no definition from an outside source, then there would be no reason for the question of belief to come up. If someone asks me, "do you believe in X", I will say, "What is X?". If they can't answer, I won't make up my own definition.

DanaC · 11-08-2006, 01:58 PM

Who devised the list of 'celebrity atheists'? Who made the decision as to whether someone was included in the list? (the star or the compiler?)

Flint · 11-08-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

(the star or the compiler?)

The star, if they said "I am an Athiest."

Flint · 11-08-2006, 02:04 PM

Do you believe that all things in the universe obey the laws of physics? And your nervous system is made of the same type of stuff as everything else? Therefore, what occurs to you as a thought or a feeling is really just the action of a mechanism which is obeying the laws of physics, right? Unless you have a "soul" or some other supernatural quality, you are a physical object, and "some things just organize because that is the easiest path" as you said. A level of organization above or below your own is not defined as intelligence, simply because you don't understand it. And, it probably feels the same way about you.

lumberjim · 11-08-2006, 02:36 PM

how do they know that they're atheists?

Flint · 11-08-2006, 02:37 PM

How does who know?

Flint · 11-08-2006, 02:48 PM

Do you know that's how the list was made? I've met plenty of people who are "hard-core" Athiests, and definitely do define themselves as such.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 02:54 PM

@HP: If I asked you "Do you believe in X?" and you asked "What does X mean?" and I said "X is the universe. Do you believe the universe exists?" what would you say? I'm not asking you to make up your own definition. I'm just wondering why the crappiest definition possible is being pushed as the only one available.

11-08-2006, 01:23 PM	#2
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	They're not. I agree with what you said. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 01:51 PM	#4
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	That is also true, and I don't think it should be simply embraced without question. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 01:57 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	How can there be a list of "Celebrity Atheists" if it isn't a personal identity? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 02:04 PM	#11
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	tangent: the definition of intelligence Do you believe that all things in the universe obey the laws of physics? And your nervous system is made of the same type of stuff as everything else? Therefore, what occurs to you as a thought or a feeling is really just the action of a mechanism which is obeying the laws of physics, right? Unless you have a "soul" or some other supernatural quality, you are a physical object, and "some things just organize because that is the easiest path" as you said. A level of organization above or below your own is not defined as intelligence, simply because you don't understand it. And, it probably feels the same way about you. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 11-08-2006 at 02:08 PM.

11-08-2006, 02:36 PM	#12
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	how do they know that they're atheists? __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

11-08-2006, 01:22 PM	#1
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	That same logic could be applied to people who consider themselves 'Christians'. Accepted tenets of the Christian faith have generally been derived from christological debates between learned clerics and ecclesiastical figures across many centuries. Most Christians believe in a God, described to them in someone else's terms. Since they define themslves in terms of their faith, and their faith is derived from external definitions of previous generations' beliefs, how are they different from your description of atheists?

11-08-2006, 01:32 PM	#3
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Then lets take it a step further: The vast majority of people form their identity on the basis of belief-systems or cultural norms which are taught to them, or to which they are exposed, during certain crucial stages of their develpment, such as early childhood, late adolescence and early adulthood. Essentially, their sense of identity is based at some level on what others before them have believed or held to be 'true'.

11-08-2006, 01:56 PM	#5
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	nods In what way do you think people who have arrived at a position of atheism, have simply embraced it without question?

11-08-2006, 01:58 PM	#9
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Who devised the list of 'celebrity atheists'? Who made the decision as to whether someone was included in the list? (the star or the compiler?)

11-08-2006, 02:37 PM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	How does who know? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 02:48 PM	#14
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Do you know that's how the list was made? I've met plenty of people who are "hard-core" Athiests, and definitely do define themselves as such. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 02:54 PM	#15
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	@HP: If I asked you "Do you believe in X?" and you asked "What does X mean?" and I said "X is the universe. Do you believe the universe exists?" what would you say? I'm not asking you to make up your own definition. I'm just wondering why the crappiest definition possible is being pushed as the only one available. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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