If you aren't guilty, what are you afraid of?

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by sycamore
--And the Aloysius party is run by some chucklehead who graduated from Southeast Missouri State University, where you can get a B by just sleeping through a class.

But we're the fastest-growing party in the U.S! 500% growth in 24 hours -- that's an annualized growth of 182,500%!!

And don't make me post more pictures of the mascot -- I'm sure people are getting sick of pictures of my dog -- but he's cuter than any donkey, most elephants, and probably whatever the LP's mascot is.

[Radar]

Most everyone's for that, Radar. Everyone except reality.

Everyone who wants equality is for it. Those who want a handout are against it.

probably whatever the LP's mascot is

It's the statue of Liberty.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
Everyone who wants equality is for it. Those who want a handout are against it.

I'd wager that most people don't want a handout. They want a fair chance...they want to play on a level field.

But we're still far away from that. Programs like Affirmative Action are in place for reasons beyond guilt. Admittedly, it's not perfect, and we'll find out more about its future sometime next year, when the Supreme Court looks at it.

[Radar]

The only way you get a fair chance is when everyone falls under the same rules. Why should people who didn't do some past injustice pay the people now who didn't suffer through it? We're equal or we're not. And the only way for everyone to be equal is to be treated equally. Not through government sanctioned racism like affirmative action.

[BrianR]

I am only twelve days away from being of age to hold Presidential Office.

Just thought you all should know.

I will entertain all nominations!

Brian

[slang]

ok, ok I'll vote for you....just pilot the chopper

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
The only way you get a fair chance is when everyone falls under the same rules.

And that's the problem...not everyone is under the same rules. Sure, they're supposed to be...but you don't think that there are "unwritten rules" that are still well-practiced in this country?

Why should people who didn't do some past injustice pay the people now who didn't suffer through it?

I don't think you can please all the people all the time. It's impossible. Therefore you have to weigh the benefits against the costs (monetary, psychological, etc.).

How are we doing so far? Eh...it definitely needs some work. My own assessment is that we need to continue to hit the core reasons that cause inequality...working on people's attitudes and making sure all children are getting a good education. Easier said than done though.

We're equal or we're not.

I believe we are all equal, but not everyone is treated equally.

And the only way for everyone to be equal is to be treated equally.

And how do you suppose we do this? Create a miracle drug that will take away people's biases? What do we do with those that won't treat people equally?

Maybe out in Southern California, or where you have been before, all people treat each other equally, and protections are unneeded (I doubt it...you live in one of the most racially polarized cities in the US). If so, that's great! But...

It's been my experience that it doesn't happen in any part of the US I've been to (23 states and DC, mostly east of the Mississippi). And I don't think it's happening in any place in the US, except maybe....MAYBE...San Francisco (and I've never been there).

You keep talking about treating people equally, yet I think you are overlooking a ton of factors that prevent this from happening, as if they are non-existant. If a Libertarian came in and tried to repeal all the protections today or in the near future, you would have a ton of pissed off people...one of the reasons why I think a lot of people don't "get" the Libertarian Party right now. Maybe down the line, a new enlightenment will come over the United States, and we will all truly be equal in the eyes of each other.

I'm optimistic, but I'm not holding my breath. And you've made my head hurt enough for one day.

[jaguar]

We're all equal. Some of us are just more equal than others....

Orwell was a legend.

Syc - I'm sure you've heard teh old addage about argueing with idiots - apply.

[Radar]

And how do you suppose we do this?

Equally under the law. And no racial group is more a victim of racism than another in America and that includes white people. Should I be able to go to Harlem and force a black owned business to hire me because I'm white? No. Should anyone be able to get a spot in college with lower grades than everyone else just because I'm black? No. Should the most qualified company with the best bid be turned down for a government contract just because another company happens to be owned by a Hispanic person? No.

Some people just don't get it. Laws don't change people's attitudes. They never have and never will. There will always be stupid and ignorant racists regardless of which race they are. There are plenty of Hispanics, blacks, middle-easterners, Asians, pacific islanders, American Indians, etc. that hate white people or each other, and vice-versa. Laws don't change that. And they should be allowed to be stupid and act any way they want. If they own a company and don't want to hire someone based on their race boycotts of their products might change their mind, but laws won't.

You can't make laws against rude behavior, or someone's attitude. It puts the government in the dangerous position of being the "thought" police and that's totally wrong. Everyone in America thinks they're a victim and it's all the fault of white guys who may or may not be related to people in the past that committed injustice to someone who isn't alive.

Nobody is entitled to any special treatment based on race. Not even if their ancestors were the victims of injustice. Frankly, I'm sick to death of idiots with the, "Your grandfather did something bad to my grandfather so now you owe me something" attitude. Especially since my grandparents came to America after slavery and endured the same exact social stigma and racism as blacks and Chinese.

Affirmative actions perpetuate racism rather than eliminating it. They victimize one group at the expense of others. They are without a doubt wrong in every way. Perhaps they were needed in the 60's, rarely in the 70's, almost never in the 80's, unheard of in the 90's, and haven't been needed now for a very long time.

We're all the same or we're all different. You can't have it both ways. We must all fall under the same rules and same laws with no special treatment for any group and base everything on meritocracy at least with government jobs. If small private (say 500 employees or less) companies want to discriminate based on race, religion, age, etc. it's not the role of government to punish them but rather society at large. And they will be harmed far more by those who vote with their dollars than anything else.

Syc - I'm sure you've heard teh old addage about argueing with idiots - apply.

Jaguar, you're not worthy of a reply by me, but I'm feeling generous so here you go. You're an insignificant mindless little dweeb who couldn't hope to keep up in a debate with me on your best day and my worst. You lack the mental capacity to comprehend even the simplest concepts. I've forgotten more about computers and networking than you'll ever know. You're a complete and utter moron who lacks any understanding of the constitution or even of the world around him. You are perpetually in a fantasy world with no grasp on reality. I pity you and your ilk because you are too stupid to even know how stupid you are. You are truly a worthless excuse for a human being let alone someone worthy of having a conversation with. You're a living, breathing joke.

Thomas Paine was talking about you when he said, "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
Thomas Paine was talking about you when he said, "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

This quote fits you much better than Señor Jag.

My God...YOU really don't get it, do you Radar? I'll leave you to your security blanket of ignorance.

[jaguar]

Cute Radar, cute, if lacking in originality or flair of any type. I'm only insulted because I’ve retorted to so much better stuff. For reference I don't claim to know much about the constitution, apart from the basics of the first few amendments, I don't live in America, a possibility I doubt your tiny mind could hope to entertain. Apart from that, I’m 17, just got a top Uni offer and a very healthy income, it’s all water off a ducks back.

Please, try again, and this time put some thought into it, use a thesaurus, maybe dig up some classics. But please, don't waste my time with such inarticulate and mediocre verbal blathering again.But enough filling this board with mindless drivel and flames, welcome to my ignore list, you'll fit in well.

[Griff]

"just got a top Uni offer" Congrats Man!

[jaguar]

Thanks =) Just hoping i can defer for a year.

[hermit22]

I can't believe you guys haven't put this idiot on the ignore list yet.

Great job though, jag. And Sycamore. And everyone else.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by hermit22
I can't believe you guys haven't put this idiot on the ignore list yet.

Great job though, jag. And Sycamore. And everyone else.

Aw shucks...it was nothing.

I've only used the ignore feature one time...and it was only for a few days. If people choose to use it, that's cool, and I can completely understand why.

As I see it, in order for someone to survive on the Cellar, they will eventually need to learn to be diplomatic...and responsible in what they post (depending on the nature of the post). Otherwise, they will:

--burn out quickly
--get bored and leave
--not be taken seriously or respected
--become a casualty through Cellar rule #3 (which in being here almost 2 years, I've seen UT execute it once--on Parmenion)

I try not to let "undesirables" bother me too much...and truth be told, it can be fun to watch people hang themselves with their own rope.