What is it to be Christian ? - Page 6

Flint · 11-02-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Questioning Christianity isn't bad. You're not supposed to just drink the kool-aid and act like a good boy.

Everyone always says this, but, isn't there only a certain amount of questioning that is logistically possible? I mean, at a certain point, your questioning either leads you "back in the fold" or you "jump ship" ...right? If you "jump ship" as a result of your questioning, then that questioning, while it wasn't dis-allowed, simply wasn't possible to carry to fruition, as a Christian. If the conclsuions found you "back in the fold" then it was.

Undertoad · 10-31-2006, 11:22 AM

Nood you describe an odd picture of what the culture is; I think it's by your need to paint a picture that redeems your beliefs, instead of the other way around. You're seeing what you want to see.

Either that, or Colorado is totally insane. I'm not ruling that out.

with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses

I attended schools for 18 years and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them, much less a mass one. I have worked at and consulted for (...counts... aw fuggit) about 30 different companies and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them. There was a guy who lost it, but he only became convinced that he was working on a super-secret AT&T project, and had to be escorted out.

Don't watch the news and listen to the sermon and take that as your reality. Look around and see the reality for yourself. In the reality I notice, people go to their schools and learn, spend most of ther time working at their jobs, and try in vain to get a little bit of entertainment at the end of the day.

everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided

Everything...! Mocked and derided! Please. I mock and deride this statement as obviously false.

and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture.

What you really want is for people to have a stronger moral basis in general, not specfically your moral basis, right?

Undertoad · 10-31-2006, 01:27 PM

One more for fun. Is the culture going morally astray?

Quote:

MTV2's icon is Cerberus, the 3-headed guardian of the gates of hades.

Anyone can define the culture as "evil" by their definition of evil. In this case, your source is either Greek mythology or Harry Potter. But hey, whatever you hit, call it the target: yeah, yeah, I'm with you man, MTV2's icon is evil and a sure sign of the coming culture wars! That's where they strike first, you know, MTV2. They don't do it on cable channels with a viewership of over 25,000 because that would be too obvious.

Feeling mocked and ridiculed? But it isn't, it's just honest conversation.

Bullitt · 10-31-2006, 01:49 PM

Three headed guardian mutt of the gates to Hades?

one... two..

Flint · 10-31-2006, 01:39 PM

Maybe the athiest conspiracy erases all evidence of their presence, like ninjas.

mrnoodle · 10-31-2006, 02:06 PM

I am not a source for research. I'm just a guy. It's easy to play "battling factoids" and have either side declare themselves the winner. Whoever has the catchiest comeback wins. whatever.

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

This thread illustrates what I'm talking about in many ways. I'm saying we're losing a connection to something good and necessary, and the responses vary from wise-ass remarks to deliberate misconstruing of what I'm saying. Flint, this means you. I said there's no atheist conspiracy, let it go. I also said that I was not accusing you of semantic games, so don't prove me wrong.

edit: more posts came in while i was typing. The model for the MTV dog is, in fact, cerberus, and it's meant to be "dark", just like the little heavy metal skulls and stuff. Yes, it has 2 heads, hence MTV2.

The majority of the founding fathers identified with the God of Christianity and the moral precepts from the Judeo-Christian ethic. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, and they worship the same God. Deism rejected Christianity, but the Providence they believed in was a version of the western God.

By the way, Thomas Jefferson also wrote:

Quote:

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

We can all pull quotes from the bible, from the founding fathers, and from any other text to bolster our own claims and argue against others. But taken as a whole, there is no doubt that the US was a nation of faith at its inception.

10-31-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

We can all pull quotes from the bible, from the founding fathers, and from any other text to bolster our own claims and argue against others. But taken as a whole, there is no doubt that the US was a nation of faith at its inception.

I absolutely doubt that. The treaty and first amendment are both very clear.
"The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Happy Monkey · 10-31-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

It's been there for more than 50 years, and it's called progress. Occasionally there are generations where there's virtually no progress, and one's life is fundamentally the same as one's grandparents', but a period of progress always comes along to make people say "kids these days" or "back in my day".

Spexxvet · 10-31-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.
...

Here's my take.

Gods were created to explain what we don't understand. Thousands of years ago, we didn't understand thunder, so Thor was the explanation. As we understand more, there is less of a need to rely on a "god". Scientists can explain pretty much everything from nanoseconds after the big bang to the present. Sure there are gaps and sure there are alternative explanations, like religion. But "god" comes down to being that which created matter/energy and caused the big bang. If you want to say that's "god", be my guest. If he designed our unniverse intelligently from the other side of the big bang, go right ahead.

The only real mysteries left are "why are we here?" and "what happens to us after we die". People who are uncomfortable with death want reassurance that we don't just become worm food, so they take solice in religion. I sometimes wish I could do that. I attend church, and feel all warm and fuzzy, and walk out thinking things like "people do not rise from the dead. The story of Saul on the road to Damascus sounds more like a UFO encounter than anything else".

And "God" has printed a manual on how to get to Heaven. It happens to be a self-conflicting book, written by men, but is claimed to be written by/ inspired by God. Some of it is actually a great guide for the survival of a young species, especially Leviticus and the ten commandments. Is it literal, or allegory - life lessons in story form? It can't be both. Until that's decided and the internal conflicts resolved - it's just a book. Fiction, IMHO.

Now-a-days, God becomes this omnipotent being that controls the unniverse. "God willing", God forbid", cause abdication of responsibility. A religious person is not responsible for his circumstances, something happened to them because they didn't go to church, didn't pray, talk to snakes, do the jig, whatever. And if you get on God's bad side, there'll be hell to pay - literally.

What's happened in the last 50 years is that knowledge has increased dramatically. People have more free time. They realize that they don't *want* to follow dogma. And the other side has fought back, trying to force these "non-beleivers" to behave as "good Christians", using legislation. Information spreads quickly, so when Jim Bakker, Pat Robinson, Jimmy Swaggart, or a self-proclaimed "Christian" behaves in a non-Christian way, *all* Christians and Christianity loses creditbility, and more people leave the faith. We also see how world wide, religion has caused conflict, death, destruction, and suffering, and don't want parts of that.

Are we losing a connection with something good and necessary? I don't feel like I am, but I'm not connected with religion, and have'nt been for 35 years.

Sorry for the tw-ish post

Flint · 10-31-2006, 02:25 PM

That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it?
Am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as "conspiracy" ???

Edit moved to new post...

mrnoodle · 10-31-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it?
Anyway, how am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as a "conspiracy" ???

UT had a disclaimer. Plus, a conspiracy requires organization, and I don't think what I'm talking about is a deliberately planned thing, just a decay of some kind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's been there for more than 50 years, and it's called progress. Occasionally there are generations where there's virtually no progress, and one's life is fundamentally the same as one's grandparents', but a period of progress always comes along to make people say "kids these days" or "back in my day".

Progress? -- [ IMG=goatse ]

glatt · 10-31-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I don't think what I'm talking about is a deliberately planned thing, just a decay of some kind.

I see it too, noodle. Mostly I think it's because news travels faster now than it did 50 years ago. Hell, it's even faster than it was when I was a pup. Speaking of when I was a kid, there was a nutjob across the river from us that baked his baby in an oven. That made the local newspaper, but it didn't get on statewide TV, and it didn't get on national television. Today, it would be part of the national news cycle for at least a week. The good old days weren't. We were just ignorant of the evil that was out there.

Happy Monkey · 10-31-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Progress? -- [ IMG=goatse ]

Yes. Stretching out your ass isn't something invented in the past 50 years; in fact it has been official government policy on occasion. At least this guy was probably willing.

Undertoad · 10-31-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

I swear: things are bad because you perceive them as bad. Let me give you a fresh spin on -- uh, stuff I think you're trying to worry about --

The culture seems to be becoming more openly sexual. Dwellars are openly posting nipple shots on the forums! Even as the FCC cracks down, wild west broadcasters on satellite and internet find new ways to go past what seems to be any level of decorum!

The teenage pregnancy rate in this country is at its lowest level in 30 years, down 36% since its peak in 1990. A growing body of research suggests that both increased abstinence and changes in contraceptive practice are responsible for recent declines in teenage pregnancy.

Source (warning: PDF)

Can you explain that? The youth culture is foul beyond belief; they're "soaking" in it. And at the end of the day, their behavior is largely close to, or better than, what it was twenty years ago.

It may be that they already have a different take on the art of their culture than you do: their take is more ironic.

mrnoodle · 10-31-2006, 03:09 PM

I get your point, UT. But we still have the highest teenage pregnancy rate of any industrialized nation. Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for people between the ages of 15-24, despite a slight recent decline and a massive anti-suicide campaign.

Sexual openness isn't necessarily the great progressive windfall you might think, according to the National Longitudinal Survey of Adoles*cent Health, Wave II, 1996., which shows a link between teenage sexual activity and depression:

10-31-2006, 01:49 PM	#4
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	Three headed guardian mutt of the gates to Hades? one... two.. __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass.

10-31-2006, 01:39 PM	#5
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Maybe the athiest conspiracy erases all evidence of their presence, like ninjas. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-31-2006, 02:25 PM	#10
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it? Am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as "conspiracy" ??? Edit moved to new post... __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 10-31-2006 at 02:55 PM.

10-31-2006, 03:09 PM	#15
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	I get your point, UT. But we still have the highest teenage pregnancy rate of any industrialized nation. Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for people between the ages of 15-24, despite a slight recent decline and a massive anti-suicide campaign. Sexual openness isn't necessarily the great progressive windfall you might think, according to the National Longitudinal Survey of Adoles*cent Health, Wave II, 1996., which shows a link between teenage sexual activity and depression: Attached Images __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

10-31-2006, 11:22 AM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Nood you describe an odd picture of what the culture is; I think it's by your need to paint a picture that redeems your beliefs, instead of the other way around. You're seeing what you want to see. Either that, or Colorado is totally insane. I'm not ruling that out. with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses I attended schools for 18 years and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them, much less a mass one. I have worked at and consulted for (...counts... aw fuggit) about 30 different companies and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them. There was a guy who lost it, but he only became convinced that he was working on a super-secret AT&T project, and had to be escorted out. Don't watch the news and listen to the sermon and take that as your reality. Look around and see the reality for yourself. In the reality I notice, people go to their schools and learn, spend most of ther time working at their jobs, and try in vain to get a little bit of entertainment at the end of the day. everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided Everything...! Mocked and derided! Please. I mock and deride this statement as obviously false. and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture. What you really want is for people to have a stronger moral basis in general, not specfically your moral basis, right?

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