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09-29-2006, 02:23 PM | #1 |
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Why does America need Secret Prisons?
Why does America need Secret Prisons?
Seriously, why? I don't see how this can be positive, or even a net positive. Why "Secret"? Ok, the "secret" is out, for the ones we know about [/cynic - realist]. The only reason I can come up with is so that the operations of such a prison are carried out beyond the easy reach of American law. What the Fuck? We have American citizens, soldiers, government officials setup for the express purpose of doing things that would be illegal in our own country. Are you kidding me? I've thought long and hard about this. I have not been able to resolve this conflict. I see circumstances where it appears to be justifiable--we need the information they have and the only way to get that information is to use techniques that aren't legal inside the US. But doesn't that make us less? Are we not a nation of laws? And now the newest detainee bill is designed to codify, to make legal what was not legal before. Nyah nyah, you can't sue me, the prez says so. So somebody explain to me why we need these secret prisons in foreign lands, please. And why do we need this detainee bill protecting interrogators from legal action if this all happens outside of our legal sphere anyway? The whole tautalogical mess stinks. Either make the actions legal and move them *here*. What's to fear? Or, keep the actions *there* and remain unrestricted by the bounds of American laws.
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Be Just and Fear Not. Last edited by BigV; 09-29-2006 at 04:45 PM. |
09-29-2006, 04:18 PM | #2 |
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*crickets chirping*
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09-29-2006, 04:32 PM | #3 |
This is a fully functional babe lair
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or the feds are just sick of the ACLU ..
big brother doesn't tell whiney little brother what he's doing on saturday night, thus avoiding the crying and tantrums
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09-29-2006, 06:47 PM | #4 |
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Where else do you keep dissenters before you openly declare it a police state?
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09-29-2006, 07:03 PM | #5 |
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Hey, lots of great nations have or have had secret prisons. Look at Nazi Germany, for example, or the way Argentina "disappeared" all those people. What about the "killing fields" of Cambodia, and let's not forget Soviet Russia's Gulags.
Jeez, who's side are you on, anyhow? Don't you know that questions like yours just give aid and comfort to the enemy and demoralize our troops in Iraq? Maybe you should be rounded up next, comrade. |
09-29-2006, 07:04 PM | #6 |
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I'm generally suspicious of anyone who pre-emptively avoids scrutiny.
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09-29-2006, 07:24 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
Just as scary are some in The Cellar who approve of laws and secret overseas torture chambers that violate American principles. We even discovered how the Ford Foundation has no credibility - and that George Jr is an honest man. Scary was political propaganda that even justified the 'Pearl Harboring' of Iraq. I make no excuses for seeing through those lies even five years ago, here, in the Cellar. I make no apologies for bluntly and openly challenging others here who still approve of torture and promote lies about 'unlawful enemy combatants'. Why do we need secret prisons? Some in America are little different from Nazi Germans, ethnic cleansers, or the KKK. Justifications for those prisons are that scary. Also scary are how some politicians such as PA’s Rick Santorum approve and then get relected. Some even in the Cellar approved of wiretapping without judicial review - as if enemies where hiding all among us as Joseph McCarthy proclaimed. I said years ago in the Cellar, "Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition". Still this president hypes lies about a war on terrorism - and so many blindly believe. A "Spanish Inquisition" is why America needs secret prisions, laws to make torture legal, and laws so that the Supreme Court cannot protect basic human rights. All this even done in the name of god - as in post 15th Century Spain. |
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09-29-2006, 10:48 PM | #8 | |
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Would that infer they are planning some?
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09-30-2006, 01:44 AM | #9 | |
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Hmmmm...I think I might go blow up a building...just cause someone else did it first. This school of thought is incredibly dangerous and until people start to really realize this is a fact, there's no hope of ending these conflicts we're all in.
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09-30-2006, 09:46 AM | #10 | |
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If we apply American laws while we're in other countries, I wouldn't be able to go to Amsterdam and smoke weed with my hookers. As the "good guys", we shouldn't break the Golden Rule - just goes to show you how Christian W actually is. We should LEAD the world as a role model. We should be able to respond with righteous indignation when our military personnel are mistreated. Instead, we lower ourselves and invite enemies to torture our people. Experts in information collection have said that information gathered through torture is unreliable. I guess this administration disagrees. They seem to have their own expert opinions about so many things. Just as they were dead-on with their assessment that Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, they may be just as accurate when it comes to the information tortured out of people. So, why secret prisons in other countries? To hide the facts from the American people. Oops. The W administration knew that this behavior would be opposed by most Americans, and considered to be outside the law, but they wanted to do it anyway. They have little regard for laws and the US Constitution. If found out, they thought they would have plausible deniability. Oops. I guess they miscalculated there, too.
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09-30-2006, 02:02 PM | #11 | |
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09-30-2006, 02:31 PM | #12 | |
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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09-30-2006, 09:51 PM | #13 | ||
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A recent example of how 'no torture' does so much. Originally broadcast on 13 Sept 2006 on BBC 2 radio: Quote:
Any idiot knows that torture and human rights violations don't do anything useful. |
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10-01-2006, 05:33 AM | #14 | ||
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The current application for secret prisons likely stems from changes in the nature of warfare which essentially renders the conventions we've entered into moot. How many people actually believe that, when push comes to shove, those conventions will be observed by anyone including the signatories? Do we really have anything significant to loose (i.e. how many American lives is your self respect worth)? Certainly, the current Administration has opted for the lowest common denominator. This has negatively impacted our worldwide credibility; but, that damage has been weighed against the potential damage resulting from not availing ourselves of strategic opportunities. Until now, civilian employees of our government have operated in a gray area. The "Laws of Land Warfare" were written for combatants (who are well defined). Non-combatants (i.e. spies, e.g. CIA) are not protected by those conventions. If they are not protected, what do they have to lose by not abiding by those conventions? That's one way of looking at it. Another way is to have everyone abide by the conventions that we've entered into. All military personnel are taught [mandatory training] that those conventions have the same legal affect, wherever they are, as Amendments to the Constitution. That's why military personnel can be prosecuted for violating those conventions even if they are ordered to do so. For the Armed Forces, it's pretty much cut and dry. Now, Congress has defined the responsibilities of all government service organizations. Secret prisons have applications beyond engaging in torture. In the case of torture that shocks the conscience, I concur with tw's statement: Quote:
Last edited by NoBoxes; 10-01-2006 at 07:20 AM. |
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10-01-2006, 07:52 AM | #15 | |
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Not sure I'm in favor of it, but it does appear to actually work and work well, violating the Cellar's notion that torture is ineffective.
The Case for Waterboarding Quote:
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