Flag-Burning Teacher: A Lesson In Free Speech - Page 2

9th Engineer · 08-31-2006, 10:58 AM

Ok, well you don't have to actually burn the flag to teach students any more than you need to burn books to make the same point. You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag. Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here.

Flint · 08-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag.

Why isn't it "justified"? What tangible harm was done in the course of teaching the lesson this way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here.

Why isn't that the case here? Teaching our kids what the flag stands for seems like a good cause...

08-31-2006, 11:13 AM

FYI, those small novelty "flags" are not actually US Flags. They are not subject to the same rules and one is not required to treat them with the same respect as a true flag.
Now, that is not to say that one should not treat one that is being used as a flag with respect, and as Scouts, when we had small flags, once they were placed on a tent or other property as a flag, we treated them as such. But, while in a box or just lying around as a toy... not a flag.

Pangloss62 · 08-31-2006, 12:18 PM

I think he did a good thing, but I agree that the whole fire issue probably ruined it for him. They can use safety issues as an excuse to punish him for what they REALLY want to punish him for.

Oh, today I came up with a bad joke; really, I did. I saw one of those "My Child Was Student of The Month at" bumper stickers and I came up with this one:

My Child With ADD Was Student of
The Minute at Lakeview Elementary

Flint · 08-31-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

They can use safety issues as an excuse to punish him for what they REALLY want to punish him for.

I agree, and furthermore I would be really interested in hearing exactly what it is that "they REALLY want to punish him for." . . .

Shawnee123 · 08-31-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

My Child With ADD Was Student of
The Minute at Lakeview Elementary

08-31-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I think he did a good thing, but I agree that the whole fire issue probably ruined it for him. They can use safety issues as an excuse to punish him for what they REALLY want to punish him for.

Oh, today I came up with a bad joke; really, I did. I saw one of those "My Child Was Student of The Month at" bumper stickers and I came up with this one:

My Child With ADD Was Student of
The Minute at Lakeview Elementary

I took this in a parking lot a few months ago:

How proud they must be.

Happy Monkey · 08-31-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here.

Yes it is.

Flint · 08-31-2006, 12:05 PM

And when the "flag" is printed on a paper plate, for instance, that you will eat greasey pork n' beans off of at a 4th of July picnic, maybe snuff a few cigarette butts on, and then throw in a rotting garbage heap with bits of half-chewed hotdogs... that "flag" is treated with "respect" ??? Oh, but wait, the 4th of July is patriotic, so that's different. Whereas a teacher teaching our children about what the flag actually stands for (aside from the right to eat pork n' beans) is un-patriotic ??? ::: confused ::: Do we even remember what the flag means? The irony is mind-boggling...

Pangloss62 · 08-31-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

with bits of half-chewed hotdogs...

Firstly, I would NEVER not eat an entire hot dog, and secondly, one should always chew their food very well, not "half-chew" it.

My goodness, Flint. What kind of 4th of July picnics have you been going to where they don't finish and properly masticate their hot dogs?

08-31-2006, 07:25 PM

A lot of people assume kids can't think for themselves. My father said something like "It will just make them want to do it". Makes me sad... I am nothing like him.

smoothmoniker · 09-01-2006, 09:50 AM

Maybe instead, he should have stood up in front of the class and said, "There ain't enough soldiers in the whole f'ing army to force us to let n*ggers into this school!" (ala Strom Thurmond).

Also protected speech. Also memorable. Also an unpopular expression.

Also totally inappropriate in a classroom.

I think flag-burning is protected speech. I don't want to see a constitutional amendment banning it. I also think it is vulgar speech, expressing a deeply hateful sentiment. To trivialize it by making it a classroom stunt destroys the power of the statement in its appropraite context.

Flint · 09-01-2006, 10:03 AM

@smoothmoniker: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me, that in statements like yours, it is implied that the teacher was expressing an opinion or position on the issue, when, more accurately, he was asking the students to give their opinion on it.

The popular "racism comparison" reminds me of Godwin's Law (Reductio ad Hitlerum).

smoothmoniker · 09-01-2006, 01:44 PM

Not at all. I think it's a very apt parallel - his point was that the 1st ammendment protects even unpopular speech, and particularly unpopular political speech. Strom's epic racial tirade was a perfect example of that kind of unpopular, offensive, political, protected speech.

In the same way, flag-burning is unpopular, offensive, political, protected speech. That's not the same thing as saying that it's appropriate.

Flint · 09-01-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

That's not the same thing as saying that it's appropriate.

Who ever said it was appropriate? It *wasn't presented as appropriate or not, as far as we know.

Edit1: *

Edit2: I give up. I can't read or type.

08-31-2006, 10:58 AM	#1
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Ok, well you don't have to actually burn the flag to teach students any more than you need to burn books to make the same point. You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag. Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

08-31-2006, 12:18 PM	#4
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Flagging Interest I think he did a good thing, but I agree that the whole fire issue probably ruined it for him. They can use safety issues as an excuse to punish him for what they REALLY want to punish him for. Oh, today I came up with a bad joke; really, I did. I saw one of those "My Child Was Student of The Month at" bumper stickers and I came up with this one: My Child With ADD Was Student of The Minute at Lakeview Elementary __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

08-31-2006, 12:05 PM	#9
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	And when the "flag" is printed on a paper plate, for instance, that you will eat greasey pork n' beans off of at a 4th of July picnic, maybe snuff a few cigarette butts on, and then throw in a rotting garbage heap with bits of half-chewed hotdogs... that "flag" is treated with "respect" ??? Oh, but wait, the 4th of July is patriotic, so that's different. Whereas a teacher teaching our children about what the flag actually stands for (aside from the right to eat pork n' beans) is un-patriotic ??? ::: confused ::: Do we even remember what the flag means? The irony is mind-boggling... __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-01-2006, 09:50 AM	#12
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	Maybe instead, he should have stood up in front of the class and said, "There ain't enough soldiers in the whole f'ing army to force us to let nggers into this school!" (ala Strom Thurmond). Also protected speech. Also memorable. Also an unpopular expression. Also totally inappropriate in a classroom. I think flag-burning is protected speech. I don't want to see a constitutional amendment banning it. I also think it is vulgar speech, expressing a deeply hateful sentiment. To trivialize it by making it a classroom stunt destroys the power of the statement in its appropraite context. __________________ to live and die in LA*

09-01-2006, 10:03 AM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	@smoothmoniker: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me, that in statements like yours, it is implied that the teacher was expressing an opinion or position on the issue, when, more accurately, he was asking the students to give their opinion on it. The popular "racism comparison" reminds me of Godwin's Law (Reductio ad Hitlerum). __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-31-2006, 11:13 AM	#3
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	FYI, those small novelty "flags" are not actually US Flags. They are not subject to the same rules and one is not required to treat them with the same respect as a true flag. Now, that is not to say that one should not treat one that is being used as a flag with respect, and as Scouts, when we had small flags, once they were placed on a tent or other property as a flag, we treated them as such. But, while in a box or just lying around as a toy... not a flag.

08-31-2006, 07:25 PM	#11
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	A lot of people assume kids can't think for themselves. My father said something like "It will just make them want to do it". Makes me sad... I am nothing like him.

09-01-2006, 01:44 PM	#14
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	Not at all. I think it's a very apt parallel - his point was that the 1st ammendment protects even unpopular speech, and particularly unpopular political speech. Strom's epic racial tirade was a perfect example of that kind of unpopular, offensive, political, protected speech. In the same way, flag-burning is unpopular, offensive, political, protected speech. That's not the same thing as saying that it's appropriate. __________________ to live and die in LA

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