Emergence of humanity - Page 5

tw · 07-24-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

But, evolutionarily speaking, why do so many cultures arcross the board have this notion? Perhaps religious belief is itself some sort of evolutionary mechanism that is used to comfort and protect us from the reality of our essential meaninglessness.

Bradshaw called it 'the child in the man'. You can observe it. A factual post that is blunt (not politically correct) will be seen by an adult in factual terms and yet will hype an emotional response in the still childish adult.

The child within us always wants an adult figure. So we create pagan gods as if it were our parents. A child is also self centered. Child views a world that revolves only around the child and those who serve that child (parents or gods). And so even Galileo had his problems with an infantile church that insisted even the sun revolves around us. The infant will suddenly discover his finger and become excited. And yet the child will never even ask why.

Adults put the world in terms that are not glorious. Adult learns there is no such thing as 'good and evil'. Adult learns of a world chock full of perspectives and deeper mysteries. A world where life ends and is then done (no such things as ghosts and spirits). Where knowledge first demands reasons why. None of this bodes well with a person so emotional as to insist they are that important - there must be more.

When a post is blunt and politically incorrect, the only relevant part is its facts. However many want to have an Oprah Winfrey or "Sign of the Times' response. Instead they want to judge by feeling. Demonstrates the child inside an adult. Children care about feelings. Adults grow up to instead learn about a bigger world well beyond a child's perspective.

9th Engineer · 07-24-2006, 07:13 PM

Perhaps people found they needed a better reason to enforce rules and laws than 'I say so, that's why'. In a world where right and wrong are encased in the individual you can't use regular logic such as 'it's better for everyone' because there is nothing forcing them to acknowledge the value of mutual prosperity other than force. Also, calling people who don't agree with your values ignorant is really pointless if value systems are personal and of equal merit.

Aliantha · 07-23-2006, 11:15 PM

That must be refreshing for you Blue. Although my mum was very compassionate in most regards, she had a problem with gay couples having children. I argued with her once in a while about the ethics of those situations but it didn't seem to make much difference. I guess it's true that sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I think it was more likely her strict catholic upbringing though. Religion has a lot to answer for.

Aliantha · 07-23-2006, 11:47 PM

There can be only one!

bluecuracao · 07-24-2006, 12:33 AM

Shawnee123 · 07-26-2006, 10:36 AM

Well crap, all the hair color commercials have been telling me life begins at 40. I was clinging to that!

Clodfobble · 07-26-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

In support of this, I would point out that I've never heard of a funeral for a miscarried fetus.

I know a woman who had one. Though I don't think it was a very mentally healthy step for her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

The baby becomes a person somewhere around 6-9 months after birth, when you can actually interact with the creature. Before that, it's an eating, peeing, and pooping machine that makes a ton of unpleasant noise, but there's nobody home.

Meh. I'd put the line closer to 2-3 months. My kid smiles, recognizes me and his father, and responds to rudimentary play. Does he have a personality? Not much of one. But he's definitely more of a person than a newborn.

On the viability issue, the whole debate will shift radically when medicine manages to create an artificial womb--instead of aborting, it could be removed and then cared for until "birth" then given up for adoption. The sick thing is, I know some women who would absolutely prefer abortion, because they can't bear the idea of someone else having their child.

Flint · 07-26-2006, 10:49 AM

I interact with my child, who won't be born for about another month.

LabRat · 07-26-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I interact with my child, who won't be born for about another month.

I did this with my daughter. Toward the end of my pregnancy, we would tap on my belly, and she would kick out at us. It was a riot!!

Clodfobble · 07-26-2006, 12:01 PM

9th, I wasn't saying a child is fit to be aborted until 2-3 months old. I'm a brain-function/viability woman for legal purposes, myself. I was just saying they move beyond being eating/pooping machines sooner than 6 months.

glatt · 07-26-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

9th, I wasn't saying a child is fit to be aborted until 2-3 months old. I'm a brain-function/viability woman for legal purposes, myself. I was just saying they move beyond being eating/pooping machines sooner than 6 months.

I just went back and looked at baby pictures, and you are right. My daughter stopped being an eating/pooping machine at about 3 months. There's a person in there at 3 months.

Flint · 07-26-2006, 12:04 PM

Is humanity determined by the projection of ones perceptions/expectations?

Undertoad · 07-26-2006, 12:25 PM

It's a good thing to get one particular term right, and that's "human"

A thing is human if it has the right chromosomes. A living blood cell is human even if it is on the sidewalk. What we are discussing is either what human thing has rights, or what confers a new level of specialness to that human thing. The thread title calls this "humanity", which I find confusing. I prefer the term "person" or "personhood", in that all cells/collections of cells with the right chromosomes are human, but not all are persons.

I think all sides can agree on these terms and that the terms are neutral to the argument.

Spexxvet · 07-28-2006, 11:08 AM

a buck a piece. All proceeds to benefit pedophilia.

9th Engineer · 07-28-2006, 12:25 PM

Fundraiser organized by NMBLA?

View Poll Results: What marks the beginning of a human life?
First genetically unique cell	8	32.00%
Birth	6	24.00%
Other (explain)	11	44.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

07-24-2006, 07:13 PM	#2
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Perhaps people found they needed a better reason to enforce rules and laws than 'I say so, that's why'. In a world where right and wrong are encased in the individual you can't use regular logic such as 'it's better for everyone' because there is nothing forcing them to acknowledge the value of mutual prosperity other than force. Also, calling people who don't agree with your values ignorant is really pointless if value systems are personal and of equal merit. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-23-2006, 11:15 PM	#3
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	That must be refreshing for you Blue. Although my mum was very compassionate in most regards, she had a problem with gay couples having children. I argued with her once in a while about the ethics of those situations but it didn't seem to make much difference. I guess it's true that sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I think it was more likely her strict catholic upbringing though. Religion has a lot to answer for. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-23-2006, 11:47 PM	#4
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	There can be only one! __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-26-2006, 10:36 AM	#6
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Well crap, all the hair color commercials have been telling me life begins at 40. I was clinging to that! __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

07-24-2006, 12:33 AM	#5
bluecuracao in a mood, not cupcake Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,034

07-26-2006, 10:49 AM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I interact with my child, who won't be born for about another month. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-26-2006, 12:01 PM	#10
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	9th, I wasn't saying a child is fit to be aborted until 2-3 months old. I'm a brain-function/viability woman for legal purposes, myself. I was just saying they move beyond being eating/pooping machines sooner than 6 months.

07-26-2006, 12:04 PM	#12
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Is humanity determined by the projection of ones perceptions/expectations? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-26-2006, 12:25 PM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It's a good thing to get one particular term right, and that's "human" A thing is human if it has the right chromosomes. A living blood cell is human even if it is on the sidewalk. What we are discussing is either what human thing has rights, or what confers a new level of specialness to that human thing. The thread title calls this "humanity", which I find confusing. I prefer the term "person" or "personhood", in that all cells/collections of cells with the right chromosomes are human, but not all are persons. I think all sides can agree on these terms and that the terms are neutral to the argument.

07-28-2006, 11:08 AM	#14
Spexxvet Makes some feel uncomfortable Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10,346	a buck a piece. All proceeds to benefit pedophilia. __________________ "I'm certainly free, nay compelled, to spread the gospel of Spex. " - xoxoxoBruce

07-28-2006, 12:25 PM	#15
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Fundraiser organized by NMBLA? __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

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