3/9/2006: Quadruped humans (and international science) - Page 2

tippy · 03-10-2006, 09:20 AM

I view this forum a lot and generally find the pictures fascinating and the general ethos sound and the opinions thoughtful even if I don't agree with them.

I was listening to a report about the difference between this kind of walking on all 4, with wrist flexed, which allows retention of the use of the fingers, whereas walking on your knuckles, like a chimp limits the dexterity of the hand, and so the photograph is interesting as you can see how that actually looks.

However, I find a lot of the language and reference used regarding todays image extemely offensive and ignorant.

Devolution is not evolution in reverse.
No, they did not learn this from copying animals.
Calling people spazzers (and inbred for that matter) is not really a ringing indictment of your own humanity.

I know we are all grown ups and there is such a thing as having a laugh but really have a word with yourselves.

david · 03-10-2006, 11:47 AM

Personally, I find this story fascinating. I am a dance instructor at a prestigious American university. Because I am also a rock climber, I became interested in how moving with all four "legs" might be helpful to our general strength and coordination. Initial results suggest that for normal, non-mentally handicapped individuals, spending time quadrupedally seems to really improve overall movement ability because it requires that all the limbs work in a mutually coordinated, sequential pattern, connected by the torsos core musculature. Also, we know that in early childhood development, crawling is crucial to development of higher intellect. It is not clear to me that what is good for the child ceases to be beneficial for adults (and by my estimations, most adults are not all that well coordinated). In other words, perhaps we could all benefit from choosing to move this way now and then, whether on the ground, on rocks, or just a good old fashioned tree climb!

I think it is interesting that people are focussing on the retardation as somehow being related, and maybe it is in this case. But the unfortunate thing about that is that people will think that it is regressive or retarded to even think about moving as a four-legged being.

In this threaded discussion, I find it most fascinating that people just seem to want or need to ridicule these folks on a number of fronts. As a dance instructor, I am used to people being easily provoked by unusual movement. It seems to not take much deviation from a pretty narrow, standard movement range to make people uncomfortable, even angry. (if you don't believe me, try it sometime in public--experiment with the line between normal and abnormal and see what kind of response you get!)
It is like an instinctive repulsion response to need to vilify someone who moves unusually. Could be left over animal responses--in a heard scenario, most blend in not wanting to draw special attention, like a kind of anonymity camaflouge. If one animal in the heard is wounded, it will have different movement patterns that will single it out visually to a predator as the most likely target. Maybe we have this built in instinct to distance ourselves from the odd one as a self-protective measure.
Also, in most of the discussion, It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that for the rest of us, who do have the gene for bipedalism, and aren't also mentally retarded, that the choice to move either bipedally or quadrupedally is even better than bipedalism alone. Not to mention that it might be good for our upright postural coordination to spend some time on all four.

Undertoad · 03-10-2006, 10:16 AM

Tipster, you're reading someone from another culture and some of the subtlety of informal language is lost.

It's funny, you know, I took some time to compose this entry and selected my language carefully in the section you object to most strongly.

If I was standing around with a group of friends, and saw someone walking on all fours in this way, I know what I would say: "Look at that retard!"

But I was recently watching an interview with actor John C. McGinley, whose son was born with Down Syndrome; and McGinley said that it really bothers him to hear people use the term "retard".

That's fair, I thought, and since Mr. McGinley did such a fine job in "Office Space", I was moved to feel that actually using the term "retard" was mean-spirited of me. So: what's another term to use for someone acting strangely to try to get attention? Because when you see strange behavior, half the time it's someone who's actually mentally handicapped, the term I decided to use instead; the other half the time, it's someone pretending to be, or something similar, to get attention.

"Spazz", I thought, has fallen so far from its original derivative that it's fair game. But apparently it has NOT fallen that far in other cultures!

So you see, in writing informally -- purposefully outside of journalistic style -- you always risk that someone will find your approach rude.

OK. Your other beefs, however, are merely incorrect.

"inbred" is precisely what the family is; that's how the different genes wind up expressing themselves.

"devolution", if it really is a word, is the take of the researchers:

Quote:

While Humphrey may be dealing with a misconduct claim, Tan is on the defensive for another reason: his science. He has raised controversial hypotheses on the syndrome—that it represents "backward evolution" or "devolution," and other still more unusual concepts—provoking deep skepticism, even ridicule.

Lastly, a certain amount of mean-spiritedness may actually be required for the sake of humanity. Taboos such as against incest are handed down as important legends through the years. This is probably partly because there is a psychobiological component, but could be because it enables the improvement and survival of the human species through genetic diversity.

tippy · 03-13-2006, 05:24 AM

Good and fair reply. However:

OK. Your other beefs, however, are merely incorrect.

"inbred" is precisely what the family is; that's how the different genes wind up expressing themselves.

"devolution", if it really is a word, is the take of the researchers:

devolution
noun [u]
the moving of power or responsibility from a main organization to a lower level, or from a central government to a regional government.

(I should know, I live in a devolved country, it deosn't mean we evolved backwards, no matter what people say! ;-))

the opposite of evolution if it did exist would be de-evolution, or, as it actually is: regression "to return to a previous and less advanced or worse state, condition or way of behaving."

not that I want to be pedantic or anything;-)

Promenea · 03-10-2006, 01:56 PM

I wonder if the apparent retardation is reinforced because these kids start to move around and lose much of their ability to come face to face with those that walk or stand upright. If you aren't face to face do you get all the nuances of language?

xoxoxoBruce · 03-10-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Promenea

I wonder if the apparent retardation is reinforced because these kids start to move around and lose much of their ability to come face to face with those that walk or stand upright. If you aren't face to face do you get all the nuances of language?

One of the articles said the kids (siblings) that first exhibited this type of behavior, spoke in a unique language that only they could understand. The parents could only understand about half of what was said.
You may be correct in that the afflicted were getting "face time" only with each other.

Seems most parents would at least attempt to get the children to walk "normally" and most children would attempt to mimic their parents. Therefore, it would appear, their method of locomotion is physically restricted and not simply choice

After reading what the "experts" had to say, it appears they can't agree on the cause/effect, so it's not likely we're going to do any better.

Tippy & david, welcome and thanks for adding your two cents.

david · 03-11-2006, 01:00 AM

Oh and by the way, while you are busy out there experimenting with how to walk on your hands (and I know at least some of you have tried it yourself since hearing about this story--how was it?) you can also try using your legs and feet to do arm and hand things!

Just use all your limbs more versatally--that would be r-evolutionary.

Bitman · 03-13-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david

Oh and by the way, while you are busy out there experimenting with how to walk on your hands

I'd like to try it myself (someplace where I won't get made fun of) but I'm more curious about running on all fours. Could you go faster than running on twos?

glatt · 03-13-2006, 03:48 PM

I often go up the stairs in my house on all fours. They are fairly steep, and I can go up them much more quickly that way. Almost at a run.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-13-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitman

I'd like to try it myself (someplace where I won't get made fun of) but I'm more curious about running on all fours. Could you go faster than running on twos?

Maybe, if you can learn to gallop.

Trilby · 03-10-2006, 02:20 PM

I spend a lot of my time on all fours.

evolution that.

capnhowdy · 03-10-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

I spend a lot of my time on all fours.

evolution that.

Great post, David... I really enjoyed it.

Trilby · 03-10-2006, 02:55 PM

i'm not david.

Clodfobble · 03-10-2006, 02:57 PM

I think capnhowdy was just being efficient, combining two reactions into a single post.

capnhowdy · 03-10-2006, 03:21 PM

exactly......sorry.

03-10-2006, 11:47 AM	#2
david Neophyte-in-training Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3	benefits of quadrupedalism reconsidered Personally, I find this story fascinating. I am a dance instructor at a prestigious American university. Because I am also a rock climber, I became interested in how moving with all four "legs" might be helpful to our general strength and coordination. Initial results suggest that for normal, non-mentally handicapped individuals, spending time quadrupedally seems to really improve overall movement ability because it requires that all the limbs work in a mutually coordinated, sequential pattern, connected by the torsos core musculature. Also, we know that in early childhood development, crawling is crucial to development of higher intellect. It is not clear to me that what is good for the child ceases to be beneficial for adults (and by my estimations, most adults are not all that well coordinated). In other words, perhaps we could all benefit from choosing to move this way now and then, whether on the ground, on rocks, or just a good old fashioned tree climb! I think it is interesting that people are focussing on the retardation as somehow being related, and maybe it is in this case. But the unfortunate thing about that is that people will think that it is regressive or retarded to even think about moving as a four-legged being. In this threaded discussion, I find it most fascinating that people just seem to want or need to ridicule these folks on a number of fronts. As a dance instructor, I am used to people being easily provoked by unusual movement. It seems to not take much deviation from a pretty narrow, standard movement range to make people uncomfortable, even angry. (if you don't believe me, try it sometime in public--experiment with the line between normal and abnormal and see what kind of response you get!) It is like an instinctive repulsion response to need to vilify someone who moves unusually. Could be left over animal responses--in a heard scenario, most blend in not wanting to draw special attention, like a kind of anonymity camaflouge. If one animal in the heard is wounded, it will have different movement patterns that will single it out visually to a predator as the most likely target. Maybe we have this built in instinct to distance ourselves from the odd one as a self-protective measure. Also, in most of the discussion, It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that for the rest of us, who do have the gene for bipedalism, and aren't also mentally retarded, that the choice to move either bipedally or quadrupedally is even better than bipedalism alone. Not to mention that it might be good for our upright postural coordination to spend some time on all four. Last edited by david; 03-10-2006 at 11:55 AM.

03-11-2006, 01:00 AM	#7
david Neophyte-in-training Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3	how about quadrumanualism?? Oh and by the way, while you are busy out there experimenting with how to walk on your hands (and I know at least some of you have tried it yourself since hearing about this story--how was it?) you can also try using your legs and feet to do arm and hand things! Just use all your limbs more versatally--that would be r-evolutionary.

03-10-2006, 02:20 PM	#11
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	I spend a lot of my time on all fours. evolution that. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-10-2006, 02:55 PM	#13
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	i'm not david. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-10-2006, 03:21 PM	#15
capnhowdy Blatantly Homosapien Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,200	exactly......sorry. __________________ Please type slowly. I can't read very fast............... and no holy water, please.

03-10-2006, 09:20 AM	#1
tippy Writer of Writings Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 14	I view this forum a lot and generally find the pictures fascinating and the general ethos sound and the opinions thoughtful even if I don't agree with them. I was listening to a report about the difference between this kind of walking on all 4, with wrist flexed, which allows retention of the use of the fingers, whereas walking on your knuckles, like a chimp limits the dexterity of the hand, and so the photograph is interesting as you can see how that actually looks. However, I find a lot of the language and reference used regarding todays image extemely offensive and ignorant. Devolution is not evolution in reverse. No, they did not learn this from copying animals. Calling people spazzers (and inbred for that matter) is not really a ringing indictment of your own humanity. I know we are all grown ups and there is such a thing as having a laugh but really have a word with yourselves.

03-13-2006, 05:24 AM	#4
tippy Writer of Writings Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 14	Good and fair reply. However: OK. Your other beefs, however, are merely incorrect. "inbred" is precisely what the family is; that's how the different genes wind up expressing themselves. "devolution", if it really is a word, is the take of the researchers: devolution noun [u] the moving of power or responsibility from a main organization to a lower level, or from a central government to a regional government. (I should know, I live in a devolved country, it deosn't mean we evolved backwards, no matter what people say! ;-)) the opposite of evolution if it did exist would be de-evolution, or, as it actually is: regression "to return to a previous and less advanced or worse state, condition or way of behaving." not that I want to be pedantic or anything;-)

03-10-2006, 01:56 PM	#5
Promenea Resident President Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 86	I wonder if the apparent retardation is reinforced because these kids start to move around and lose much of their ability to come face to face with those that walk or stand upright. If you aren't face to face do you get all the nuances of language?

03-13-2006, 03:48 PM	#9
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I often go up the stairs in my house on all fours. They are fairly steep, and I can go up them much more quickly that way. Almost at a run.

03-10-2006, 02:57 PM	#14
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	I think capnhowdy was just being efficient, combining two reactions into a single post.

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