The Wal-Mart Problem

[wolf]

$0/hr puts them even further below it ... at least the $9 folks are trying.

[Undertoad]

And, BTW, $9.00/hour puts a family of 4 well below the Federal poverty guidelines.

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument, but now it's just something you pulled out of your ass. $9/hr works out to $18,000 gross per year and poverty is $18,850. I'm not saying it's a great life, but I'm guessing most Walmart jobs aren't the only wage-earner for a family of four either.

In order to earn poverty level for a single wage earner for a family of four, that person has to make $9.43/hr.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument...

I can't get too specific about California's economy but common sense tells me a couple things.

Wages in CA are artificially high. Artificial because the grocery store unions have leveraged them up. Higher wages increase prices which, in turn, raises the poverty line. Additionally, California's generous state-provided entitlement programs (education and other benefits for non-citizens who don't pay into the tax system) serve to increase the tax burden disproportionately. A higher tax burden also has the effect of raising the poverty line because those who shoulder the burden must raise prices to cover the increase.

Now, Wal-Mart sees the "gap" between labor costs and price level and enters the market with lower prices and lower labor costs and makes a zillion dollars BECAUSE their lower prices enable shoppers to basically lower their own poverty line by increasing their buying power. A point conspicuously absent from the cited study.

I just think its disingenuous to single out Wal-Mart for paying below-average wages when all they are guilty of is offering a wage and benefit package that is better than 44,000 Californians had before Wal-Mart entered the CA market. And to turn a blind eye to farm co-ops who "employ" thousands of non-citizens and pay no labor tax and pocket the wage differential.

And without necessarily assuming it, I think its a safe bet to say that Wal-Mart's contribution to the GDP of California far outweighs the phantom cost the study attributes to Wal-Mart. The study was not an economic study and only looked at one element in the equation.

Therefore, while interesting, the study is basically conclusionless.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument, but now it's just something you pulled out of your ass. $9/hr works out to $18,000 gross per year and poverty is $18,850. I'm not saying it's a great life, but I'm guessing most Walmart jobs aren't the only wage-earner for a family of four either.

In order to earn poverty level for a single wage earner for a family of four, that person has to make $9.43/hr.

Actually $9.00/hr works out to $17, 280. Federal poverty guidelines for 2006 for a family of 4 are $20,000.00/year or less BEFORE taxes. You were saying about pulling something out of your ass?

No, let us hope families of 4 don't commonly have to get by on this small sum. Unfortunately, some do - especially thosed headed by single Mom's.

Yeah, Wolf, $9.00 an hour with no benefits is better than nothing. So, let's lower the bar and everyone get by on $3.00/hr - its better than nothing. What was your point?

Noodle, good for your Dad! Sounds like a hard working guy who set a great example for his kids. The Forest Service does not require a vow of povery, by the way. My ex husband was in the Forest Service and we lived quite well. I have a friend whose Dad was in the Forest Service for 30 years, raised two kids, put them through college and retired in a very upscale neighborhood in Colorado Springs. What does any of this have to do with those who lack the benefits of a GI bill to attend college? My Dad was career enlisted. He served in the US military for 30 years. We ate a lot of burgers and hot dogs, too. I got a scholarship to college, worked part time and got two Master's degrees. Had a career that I adored until I got sick with a mysterious illness that my doctors couldn't figure out and here I am. What does any of this have to do with Wal-Mart?

Oh! Health insurance! :p

[Trilby]

Anybody ever read NICKEL AND DIMED? The system is set up to fuck these people over. Get over the 9$/hr issue already--try living on it.

and people are penalized for 'trying'. you know that.

[mrnoodle]

I buy some things at Wal-Mart because it's cheap and convenient. The cheapness goes away when they have to pay someone $15/hr to push shopping carts from the parking lot to the store (a skillset that is sorely lacking at our local store, btw).

Our desire for having it all, right now, at the cheapest price we can get it doesn't mesh well with our tiny little consciences telling us that low-paying jobs aren't "fair". And our desire for stuff wins every time. "Wal-Mart shelf stocker" isn't really supposed to be the sort of job that feeds a family of four.

It seems to me that there's a different sense of work ethic these days. My dad (told by his mom -- really -- that he was borderline retarded and that all of his brothers were smarter than him) went into the Navy and got the GI Bill. He worked 2 FULL TIME jobs (that's 80 hours) while taking a full courseload at college. Mom taught elementary school as soon as my older sister was old enough to go, so Dad could drop one of the jobs. He picked industrial technology as his degree and got a doctorate (he actually wanted to be a forest ranger, but he put his family's needs first). This was about the time I entered the picture. I remember eating beanie-weenies 3 days out of the week when I was a child until dad was finally able to get a consulting job along with the professor gig at CSU. We lived pretty large then, taking trips and such, and rarely duplicating a meal in the same week. I remember many nights when he and my mom (who helped him with secretarial stuff and test grading) didn't get to bed until 2 a.m.

He retired a couple years ago after 25-30 years at the university, after having put 3 kids through college, paid off his house and cars, and not a single meal missed by any of us. Not a millionaire by any stretch, he makes just enough from investments and retirement to take a trip or two to see family every year. I have lived with them for the last several years, and my rent money sends them on a fall foliage tour or cruise of some kind every year or two. I'll still send them the rent when I get a house next year (after I've cleared up my financial problems, which are finally getting under control). Until last year, he regularly turned down speaking engagements from "the industry" that would've paid a nice 6-figure salary because he was sick of working. He'd rather live modestly than spend another year of his life going from 6 a.m. - midnight for someone else.

That's 30 years in the trenches, scraping by, followed by 35 years of good times, all from hard work.

Let's just say he doesn't have a whole lot of pity for people who work 20 hours a week at McDonalds and expect the government to cover the rest of their bills.

[mrnoodle]

edit: they weren't beanie-weenies, they were actual weiners cut in half and covered in cheese. We called it steak. I didn't eat the beans because of the little globs of fat in them. Eww.

[wolf]

Not bad for someone who was told that he was a retard.

Initiative can do some amazing things. Shame they don't seem to be handing it out by the bucketsful anymore.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by wolf

Initiative can do some amazing things. Shame they don't seem to be handing it out by the bucketsful anymore.

That feature has been discontinued. The new models come with Gen-x apathy.

[Guyute]

While I feel that we are authors of our own demise when we buy goods from companies who buy from China (the country that uses slave prison labor), my biggest problem with Wal-Mart is the front of the store-
they NEVER HAVE ANY GEE-DEE CASHIERS WORKING!!!!!

If I go in there at any time I guarantee that there are never more than 3 cashes open. There are 40-50 people waiting to be rung through, and right over their heads is a big banner proclaiming "WAL-MART CARES ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!" Sheeit, I'd hate to see how I'd be treated if they DIDN'T care. I have been getting seriously sick of giving Wal-Mart money when they are too arrogant to even put enough cashiers out to effectively serve a busy day.
The sad thing is, that when Colgate toothpaste is 25% cheaper than the local chainstore, I unfortunately don't make enough money to justify throwing away 25% of it. But then I wait 3 times longer to pay...hmmm how much is my time worth?
Interestingly, I hear that a town in New Brunswick is blocking a Wal-Mart from opening... Rothesay, I believe???

[wolf]

Mari, you're not really one to speak about what one can and cannot do on $9 an hour, since your existance is totally funded by taxpayers and sympathetic donations accrued as a consequence of maudlin newspaper articles.

Originally Posted by wolf

Mari, you're not really one to speak about what one can and cannot do on $9 an hour, since your existance is totally funded by taxpayers and sympathetic donations accrued as a consequence of maudlin newspaper articles.

Wolf, you are not really one to speak to my personal situation since you are going by information that is two years old. I feel no special need to either justify or explain my current situation to you, other than to note that time passes and things change and you are incorrect. :p

[wolf]

And another thing ... your argument regarding the $9/hr worker being below the poverty line is incorrect. If you kick that up to a single wage earner for a dependent family of four, yes, that's below the established poverty line. Employ a second family member, even part time, and they're over.

Poverty line for a SINGLE WORKER under age $65 is $9827. $18720/yr is just under twice that. If you're going to use numbers, use 'em straight.

(source)

Originally Posted by wolf

And another thing ... your argument regarding the $9/hr worker being below the poverty line is incorrect. If you kick that up to a single wage earner for a dependent family of four, yes, that's below the established poverty line. Employ a second family member, even part time, and they're over.

Poverty line for a SINGLE WORKER under age $65 is $9827. $18720/yr is just under twice that. If you're going to use numbers, use 'em straight.

(source)

Forgot to secure the laptop before going on break again, eh Wolf?

Originally Posted by Wolf
[Marichiko lies and cheats]

Originally Posted by Marichiko

And, BTW, $9.00/hour puts a family of 4 well below the Federal poverty guidelines.

Originally Posted by Marichiko

Actually $9.00/hr works out to $17, 280. Federal poverty guidelines for 2006 for a family of 4 are $20,000.00/year or less BEFORE taxes. You were saying about pulling something out of your ass?

Since you object to the numbers from the Federal Register, would you please suggest a publication more to your liking? And Rush Limbaugh transcripts don't count.

[imprint]

it feels GREAT to be back in atlanta, again! wow, did I miss a lot while I was away!

here is the deal, guys. wal-mart is intended to supply high schoolers and college students with jobs during the summer. do you remember when you used to do that? bag boy, register operator, stocking shelves, the whole deal. you got paid little, you worked long hours, and you felt good for it years later. America needs wal-mart and America needs wal-mart with cheap labor. how else is a family of three, four, five, or more supposed to make ends meet? the solution is simple: wal-mart offers low prices thanks to low labor and the fact that they don't have to offer health insurance.

I crack up when I walk into my lawrenceville wal-mart and find people over the age of 18 working there. do you understand why these people are working there? wait for it.

they
can't
do
anything
else.

and it is their own doing, their own fault. they could have gotten an education, they could have made something of themselves in this world, they could have gone to college. instead they find themselves playing the part of the cart greeter, the job originally reserved for that 16 year old looking to make payments on a used camero. those of us that work hard once had one of these jobs. the difference is that those of us that continued to work hard will never hold one like it again. in the meantime, I hope wal-mart never offers health insurance to these people, because that would mean that all of the large families that use wal-marts low low prices will end up taking the hit. my family is not large and I love shopping there. where else can you fill an entire suv full of groceries and pay so little? we NEED this business, people!

wal-mart isnt cheating the people. it is the people and the government that is trying to cheat a well thought-out business. to the people that cry for free health care: WORK HARD, GET AN EDUCATION. anyone is this great country of ours can do it! we all have this beautiful system to thank for where we are today!