6/24/2002: Another Palestinian child

[Count Zero]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

As for whether they deserve that curfew or not... 51% of Palestinians represent the destruction of Israel. No pity for the majority.

You're insane.

Originally posted by Count Zero
You're insane.

Why dropping into ad hominem attacks? Are you incapable of discussing politics without personally attacking those who disagree with you?

[Count Zero]

Originally posted by dhamsaic


Why dropping into ad hominem attacks? Are you incapable of discussing politics without personally attacking those who disagree with you?

Yeah, sure. You're too smart for me. I give up.

I don't at all think you should give up. I'd just strongly prefer if you'd attack my argument without throwing in insults.

[jennofay]

from reading this afternoon, i have discovered some major flaws in this whole discussion.

1) too many people have already formed strong opinions, and are looking for "proof" to back them up. a quote here or a statistic there doesnt strengthen an argument based in opinion and emotion. too many of you are positive that you are right, that the situation is cut and dry, and that any one who disagrees with you is a total idiot, because of "this article"...unfortunately, a "debate," lets call it, where there are many sides and many opinons, can not be handled that way. if you used "yea, well youre a poopy-head, so there" as your argument, no one would take you seriously. focus of hard facts.

2) too many of you are using single isolated incidents to back up your entire argument. this goes along with my first point. just because something happened does not make it the norm for an entire society. this is why people in other countries see americans as lazy, americans often classify the french as rude, etc. you simply can not stereotype an entire group of people based on a few events. this is about as stupid as my showing a photo of our cat, shadow to someone to "prove" to them that all cats are black. you have to look at the whole picture, especially with something as complex as this.

3) i have seen a few people using sources over and over again to back up their argument. some of these sources, i believe, and you may too, are biased in themselves. obviously no one is so stupid as to use "www.thepalestinianextremistsareright.com" to back their support of this particular group of people, but you cant base your entire argument based on ONE persons opinion or ONE website, especially not a well known and reputable one. this is why our teachers forced us to use "three or more sources" in our research papers. you simply can not form a well rounded opinion of a situation when you have only read one viewpoint.

4) people are *looking* for a fight. damn, people. if i remember correctly, this whole thread began with a photo of a little girl who was being trained to hate. to not learn to understand other people, but to celebrate the lack of understanding and compassion around her. we are no better if we can not learn to sit down and *calmly* read a discussion and say to ourselves, "you know, i might not agree with what this person is saying, but thats their opinion and i respect that." instead, we look for any phrase which we can tear apart and throw back in their face. this is not intelligent discussion. stop using emotion as your argument.

note i did not name names, i know that i am going to have this replied to with at least one defensive post whining at me about how i dont understand, and they are not doing this, and that i am a moron. dont bother. i dont care. if you dont fit into the above categories, great. if you do, dont get defensive and try to start a fight, i wont reply and youll be wasting your time. just think about what i said and try to understand where this is coming from. if you cant sit down and have a mature, intelligent conversation, dont bother.

this being said, i am certainly no expert on the situation in the middle east. i actually know very little. what i do know, however, is that any government/orginization/whatever, that is encouraging the teaching of hatred to children is despicable. there is NO excuse for it. i dont know about any other countries, but if this was going on in the united states, an end would be put to it immediately. this leads me to believe that the leadership in these countries needs to be changed. if the leaders are not strong enough to look at their people and say to them "this is wrong," then they should be replaced with someone who is able to face up to the challenge. putting personal feelings aside for the good of the people. no matter whose feelings have been hurt in the past, or who went to which holy site, or whatever. that doesnt matter. that is the past. obviously something needs to change. since i am not educateed at all on this subject, i wont say that this leader or that leader needs to go, but there is a definate problem in the way that an entire society is running if children are being lead in praises of murderers.

[Nic Name]

Originally posted by dhamsiac referring to Count Zero

It finally hit me, when I read this, why you come off sounding like such a knob.

Originally posted by dhamsaic telling Count Zero how he should discuss politics

I'd just strongly prefer if you'd attack my argument without throwing in insults.

I'd submit to you that "knob" has many different meanings, and in my usage, it meant "someone who is ignorant of my argument"... sort of like... a dunce. Which he was, and still is. It wasn't at all in an inflammatory manner.

All I'm looking for is intelligent discussion and debate, and if his arguments are going to totally ignore mine and culminate with "You're insane", then he is obviously perfectly happy in continuing to sound like a knob (a term we use around work to describe someone who complains about something without having done the required work to understand it).

I have very much toned down my arguments in the past months so as to not incite flamewars. I don't think it's too much to ask that other people argue without making a personal attack. So whereas my saying he sounds like a knob means "you are largely ignorant of what I am speaking" and is not an ad hominem attack, his "You're insane" is both false and designed to degenerate the discussion on to his level. There is a very big difference between the two, and the parallel you draw is not one at all.

[Nic Name]

knob Noun. 1. The penis.
2. An idiot, an objectionable person. Derog.

If you don't see the parallel between one person calling someone an idiot and another calling the other insane, then, if you're not one then you're the other.

I'd be curious to see the dictionary from which you extracted that definition, because it certainly isn't in mine.

3. What I already said above.

[Nic Name]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

So whereas my saying he sounds like a knob means "you are largely ignorant of what I am speaking"

So, David, it's fair to say you're coming off sounding like a knob, by your definition at least.

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/k.htm

http://www.starma.com/penis/penis.html

http://english2american.com/dictionary/wholelot.html

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
So whereas my saying he sounds like a knob means "you are largely ignorant of what I am speaking" and is not an ad hominem attack, his "You're insane" is both false and designed to degenerate the discussion on to his level.

What you said could still be interpreted as insulting. I have no idea what Zero meant when he said "You're insane," although he could have very well meant "You are largely ignorant of what I am speaking."

I am not aware of any meaning of the word "insane" which indicates that one is largely ignorant of an issue. It's my contention that the word is very rarely (if ever) used to mean that. Furthermore, that would not at all fit within the context of his post, which was quoting me. My usage of "knob" fits in the context with which I have said it was used, mostly because <b>that is exactly what I meant by it</b>. I have heard <b>many</b> people use it to describe someone as an ignoramus - possibly a shortening of "dumb as a doorknob" - and it is used very commonly in this area (or at least with the people I work with, many of whom are from a military background) to mean "that guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about."

I feel that this explains it enough. You guys believe what you want; I will believe what I know.

Also, Nic, two of your reference pages are decidedly British (and I am decidedly not) and the other is simply a listing of euphemisms for "penis" - which has probably been euphemistically referred to more than any other term in our language.

It should also be pointed out that the correct English (as in "from England") spelling is <i>nob</i>, and is not what I wrote.

[Nic Name]

Tony, can we get a new forum for this topic:

http://pub120.ezboard.com/ffreeforal...icID=126.topic

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
You guys believe what you want; I will believe what I know.

And I will believe that in this situation, you can't have it both ways.