Understanding terrorism - Page 4

wolf · 07-23-2005, 02:22 AM

I'm not sure you can refer to the "Bible Discernment Ministries" as a reliable source.

I'm not disputing any claims that the Roman Catholic Church has pagan or paganized elements, but, well, the Catholic Church is what the Protestants were protesting about ...

07-23-2005, 04:27 AM

I was lazy. It was the first one out of about 600 that popped up when I googled "catholic church" and "pagan."

Anyhow, I thought that was just sort of a given. Those clever early Christian missionaries just overlaid their doctrine on top of the pagan worship that was prevalent at the time, so we got Christmas instead of the winter solstice, Easter in place of the spring equinox, etc.

I forget what Martin Luther's exact bitch was when he nailed those 95 theses to the local Catholic university's door. I think mostly he was upset that the pope back there in Rome got to be the utilmate authority on the latest insider news from God. The Catholic Encyclopedia hints that Luther may have been a psychopath, but they're probably a bit biased.

Talk about thread drift!

jaguar · 07-23-2005, 10:32 AM

There was an excellent article in the Independent today (at the fairly insane price of 5.50SFr over here grr) from a columnist who lives and works in beruit. His hyphothisis on the motives for suicide bombers in this scenario makes more sense than any Iàve heard. Shortened right down, it goes something like this.

Like early western explorers were quite taken by idea of harems but disgusted by other practices in the east, many muslims today are very tempted by the sexual freedoms and other freedoms of and living in the west. His example was a turkish student that studied over here and slept with is girlfriend but then got mummy to find him a nice turkish virgin to marry when he went home. That's the happy ending to this cultural oddity. The unhappy one is when the desire leads to self-loathing and guilt, and a spell in an old-school pakistani madrasa doesn't hurt here. The person ends up wanting to punish the society they percieve as having led them astray as well as destroy themselves.

The bomb makers are of course, a slightly different story, they are that hard-core of extremists that exist around any ideology, from my earlier socialist/communist example to facism, christianity or animal rights. I think these two ideas togher paint the best picture of the mental landscape of islamic extremism, particularly in the UK and essentailly, most of europe I've seen yet.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-23-2005, 11:33 AM

Makes sense, Jag.
Here is manifests itself in slightly safer scenerios, every day.
I screw up.
I sue you.
I win money.
That proves it was your fault and I didn't really screw up.

Of course if I don't win money I may have to blow stuff up.

tw · 07-23-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

... many muslims today are very tempted by the sexual freedoms and other freedoms of and living in the west. His example was a turkish student that studied over here and slept with is girlfriend but then got mummy to find him a nice turkish virgin to marry when he went home. ... The unhappy one is when the desire leads to self-loathing and guilt, and a spell in an old-school pakistani madrasa doesn't hurt here. The person ends up wanting to punish the society they percieve as having led them astray as well as destroy themselves.

This is similar to a 'progression' described by The Economist. Having gone through 'unholy' freedoms and then suddenly reversed - becoming an excessively devote muslim - the man is then ready for the next step. Seeking a destructive mission in life. Only but a few find a godfather type that would make them truly dangerous. But the story is classic of a minority - the lost soul looking for himself in religion.

Again, what makes this so difficult for law enforcement is that terrrorist groups do not do the recruiting. Future terrorists recruit themselves having discovered that religion must be imposed on the infidels. These people who could not handle life suddenly know what is better for everyone else. Religion doing even what the Catholic Church did - promote hate.

wolf · 07-23-2005, 12:25 PM

I don't understand the part about terrorism that says that Muslim Extremists can gain some kind of advantage by blowing up 73 Egyptians and 10 folks from other countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, Italy, and Great Britain.

lookout123 · 07-23-2005, 12:31 PM

blow up people from other countries sothat those other countries will place pressure on the US.

jaguar · 07-23-2005, 01:25 PM

to do what exactly? it's frigging egypt. That incident and those like it are rooted in the state of egyptian politics or lack thereof.

wolf · 07-23-2005, 01:34 PM

Precisely my point ...

jaguar · 07-23-2005, 02:14 PM

just because they're all probably islamic extremists doesn't mean they're all working towards the same goal or even the same direction. The egyptians might be trying the that old idea that if you cause the government to crack down hard enough, the people rise up or just hoping to kill israeli tourists, the british ones were probably just angry, the Iraqi ones want different things depending on which of the 100 odd groups you want to mention, the Indonesian ones seem to want a pan islamic state, or indpendence, or the government to fuck off or something, the Thai ones want independence from Thailand and the government to stop killing them, the Pakistani ones want the taliban back and to generally break out the oldschool fire and brimstone stuff on infidels, the indian ones want to kill hindus over disputed religious sites and shit, that's just off the top of my head.

richlevy · 07-23-2005, 04:19 PM

BTW, let's not forget the IRA, Basque, and miscellaneous Marxist and seperatist terror groups.

London in the 1980's endured a wave of IRA bombings. The main difference is that, while fanatical, the IRA did not recruit suicide bombers.

wolf · 07-24-2005, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

London in the 1980's endured a wave of IRA bombings. The main difference is that, while fanatical, the IRA did not recruit suicide bombers.

Wasn't one of the hallmarks of an IRA bombing that they gave notice that it would occur ... minimum casualties, maximum political statement?

jaguar · 07-24-2005, 12:02 AM

richlevy - and the IRA had demands and usually telephoned first.

Urbane Guerrilla · 07-24-2005, 12:33 AM

I wouldn't -- and don't -- quibble about what the Gitmo guys are getting or not getting, be it the third degree twice before supper or steamed chicken for it. Whether they are in the precise letter of the law prisoners of war or not, they are getting POW treatment, and that is enough. There is no point in calling for any other sort of treatment except in the furtherance of an ulterior motive to lose America the war.

As an American, I resent that. If you want a good world, wars against tyranny (and GWB doesn't count as a tyrant, except among people who are willfully ignorant of tyranny) must be won, not lost. Here we are not only fighting tyranny but beating it, and a bunch of cryptofascists have the bloody nerve to complain? UP AGAINST THE WALL AND BACK UNDER YOUR ROCKS, YOU TERTIARY-SYPHILITIC FASCISTOCOMMUNIST SONS OF BACHELORS. Line up for forcible sterilization before you go. If the world is to become good, you must not breed.

wolf · 07-24-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

As an American, I resent that. If you want a good world, wars against tyranny (and GWB doesn't count as a tyrant, except among people who are willfully ignorant of tyranny) must be won, not lost. Here we are not only fighting tyranny but beating it, and a bunch of cryptofascists have the bloody nerve to complain? UP AGAINST THE WALL AND BACK UNDER YOUR ROCKS, YOU TERTIARY-SYPHILITIC FASCISTOCOMMUNIST SONS OF BACHELORS. Line up for forcible sterilization before you go. If the world is to become good, you must not breed.

You're not married or seeing anyone, are you?

07-23-2005, 02:22 AM	#1
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I'm not sure you can refer to the "Bible Discernment Ministries" as a reliable source. I'm not disputing any claims that the Roman Catholic Church has pagan or paganized elements, but, well, the Catholic Church is what the Protestants were protesting about ... __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-23-2005, 04:27 AM	#2
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I was lazy. It was the first one out of about 600 that popped up when I googled "catholic church" and "pagan." Anyhow, I thought that was just sort of a given. Those clever early Christian missionaries just overlaid their doctrine on top of the pagan worship that was prevalent at the time, so we got Christmas instead of the winter solstice, Easter in place of the spring equinox, etc. I forget what Martin Luther's exact bitch was when he nailed those 95 theses to the local Catholic university's door. I think mostly he was upset that the pope back there in Rome got to be the utilmate authority on the latest insider news from God. The Catholic Encyclopedia hints that Luther may have been a psychopath, but they're probably a bit biased. Talk about thread drift! Last edited by marichiko; 07-23-2005 at 04:30 AM.

07-23-2005, 10:32 AM	#3
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	There was an excellent article in the Independent today (at the fairly insane price of 5.50SFr over here grr) from a columnist who lives and works in beruit. His hyphothisis on the motives for suicide bombers in this scenario makes more sense than any Iàve heard. Shortened right down, it goes something like this. Like early western explorers were quite taken by idea of harems but disgusted by other practices in the east, many muslims today are very tempted by the sexual freedoms and other freedoms of and living in the west. His example was a turkish student that studied over here and slept with is girlfriend but then got mummy to find him a nice turkish virgin to marry when he went home. That's the happy ending to this cultural oddity. The unhappy one is when the desire leads to self-loathing and guilt, and a spell in an old-school pakistani madrasa doesn't hurt here. The person ends up wanting to punish the society they percieve as having led them astray as well as destroy themselves. The bomb makers are of course, a slightly different story, they are that hard-core of extremists that exist around any ideology, from my earlier socialist/communist example to facism, christianity or animal rights. I think these two ideas togher paint the best picture of the mental landscape of islamic extremism, particularly in the UK and essentailly, most of europe I've seen yet. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-23-2005, 11:33 AM	#4
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Makes sense, Jag. Here is manifests itself in slightly safer scenerios, every day. I screw up. I sue you. I win money. That proves it was your fault and I didn't really screw up. Of course if I don't win money I may have to blow stuff up. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-23-2005, 12:25 PM	#6
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I don't understand the part about terrorism that says that Muslim Extremists can gain some kind of advantage by blowing up 73 Egyptians and 10 folks from other countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, Italy, and Great Britain. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-23-2005, 12:31 PM	#7
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	blow up people from other countries sothat those other countries will place pressure on the US. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-23-2005, 01:25 PM	#8
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	to do what exactly? it's frigging egypt. That incident and those like it are rooted in the state of egyptian politics or lack thereof. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-23-2005, 01:34 PM	#9
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Precisely my point ... __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-23-2005, 02:14 PM	#10
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	just because they're all probably islamic extremists doesn't mean they're all working towards the same goal or even the same direction. The egyptians might be trying the that old idea that if you cause the government to crack down hard enough, the people rise up or just hoping to kill israeli tourists, the british ones were probably just angry, the Iraqi ones want different things depending on which of the 100 odd groups you want to mention, the Indonesian ones seem to want a pan islamic state, or indpendence, or the government to fuck off or something, the Thai ones want independence from Thailand and the government to stop killing them, the Pakistani ones want the taliban back and to generally break out the oldschool fire and brimstone stuff on infidels, the indian ones want to kill hindus over disputed religious sites and shit, that's just off the top of my head. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-23-2005, 04:19 PM	#11
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	BTW, let's not forget the IRA, Basque, and miscellaneous Marxist and seperatist terror groups. London in the 1980's endured a wave of IRA bombings. The main difference is that, while fanatical, the IRA did not recruit suicide bombers. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

07-24-2005, 12:02 AM	#13
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	richlevy - and the IRA had demands and usually telephoned first. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-24-2005, 12:33 AM	#14
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I wouldn't -- and don't -- quibble about what the Gitmo guys are getting or not getting, be it the third degree twice before supper or steamed chicken for it. Whether they are in the precise letter of the law prisoners of war or not, they are getting POW treatment, and that is enough. There is no point in calling for any other sort of treatment except in the furtherance of an ulterior motive to lose America the war. As an American, I resent that. If you want a good world, wars against tyranny (and GWB doesn't count as a tyrant, except among people who are willfully ignorant of tyranny) must be won, not lost. Here we are not only fighting tyranny but beating it, and a bunch of cryptofascists have the bloody nerve to complain? UP AGAINST THE WALL AND BACK UNDER YOUR ROCKS, YOU TERTIARY-SYPHILITIC FASCISTOCOMMUNIST SONS OF BACHELORS. Line up for forcible sterilization before you go. If the world is to become good, you must not breed. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

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