Harassee Gets Time

[jaguar]

Shitstorm!
FUD - Fear Uncertainty & Doubt.

So, you can kill someone with a sharp object, as long as it's not a weapon?

You're not allowed to carry weaponry, so if i get mugged and stab the guy with a 12" butterfly blade there's going to be some questions about what I was doing with it in the first place.

You're kidding right? That sounds about as effective as the restraining orders issued in domestic violence cases here in the colonies.

Not really, they seem to work, the overall response has been positive and they've been used to great effect in some estates in situations where you have people doing things that are borderline illegal but have a very negative effect on quality of life. There are ways of giving evidence for them that don't involve giving up your identity and you can collect evidence easily to prove they've been broken.

With what? A dead parrot maybe?

Iron bar? Kitchen knife? Personally in my room i could list scalpels, tripods, steel rods, excato knife, swiss army knives, kitchen knife and a cricket bat.

Yes, that's always an effective deterrent to crooks. Make something against the law, and they'll be too scared of prison to try it.

Antisocial behaviour order - kids messing up gardens, not organised crime. They deal with a specific kind of problem that has been growing here, bored kids and fucked up families that cause hell for estates and villages and they seem to work.

mrnoodle - I agree the advice is not exactly top-knotch self-defence training. Capscian sprays are illegal, I know, it's fucked up. There is some background to all this, a few months back the tories made a huge issue out of it, shitting on about how people defending their families could go to jail and all the usual emotive crap, turns out something like 6 people had been jailed since it came into force and all in circumstances that made it clear they had used unreasonable force. If some 16y.o kid breaks into your home I'm not sure you should be able to fill him full of lead as he's jumping out the window, maybe you are but I don't think the law is unreasonable there. In assault situations it's more complicated but the principle remains - just because you're under threat doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to the person. Maybe you disagree but that's a separate argument, my point is that UK law is not as unreasonable as TS made it sound. However I do think CS spray & other non-leathal weapons should be legal.

Supposedly that's the case here as well, but we've had numerous cases of the perpetrator winning lawsuits against property owners who fucked them up during the course of defending themselves and their homes/businesses.

These things can go both ways, I don't think people should be allowed to set up mantraps either.

[jaguar]

This is the thing. I live in a fucking rough area in london and it's not uncommon for me to be out on the streets, sometimes alone at all hours of the morning(as in the ones before dawn). I've never had a problem and if I did I would be very, very surprised if the guy pulled out a gun, outside areas with very serious gang problems gun crimes are very unusual. Everyone armed may to a degree, work, sometimes but it doesn't make for the kind of society in which I would want to live. I like the fact I feel safe without having to carry a firearm.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

So it doesn't matter if you're getting vandalized or not, point a gun, serve the time.

You can't point/shoot a real gun under these circumstances in most US states.

Texas allows you to defend your property. Most states require that you be at risk of losing your life before you are justified in the use of "deadly force."

Much as I hate British gun law, I think the court ruled properly. Provocation is not justification.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by wolf

Much as I hate British gun law, I think the court ruled properly. Provocation is not justification.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it sensible. As we see every day. I think the real issue is only going to show up down the road for the citizens of England. As we know, things aren't ready to get better yet, they haven't gotten bad enough yet.

That being said, she overreacted and the court appears to have ruled within it's abilities.

It's still silly rules though.

[jaguar]

IIRC the long points bits are for defining parts or somesuch but are a good length and pointiness to be very effective.

[Undertoad]

Looks like tazering is now used as an alternative to hitting the guy in the knees with the bat.

Which is a little weird, since they were sold as the alternative to shooting the guy.

[jaguar]

Um, when are you expecting it to turn up? IIRC the law has been around since the 70s.
Which bit is silly? Firing a gun at someone's feet and threatening someone with a gun in response to pouring water of your son's car?

What is, in your opinion the real issue? We can't own guns here? We can't kill intruders with total legal impudy, which as wolf stated, is the same as in most of the US?

[mrnoodle]

The real issue is that when people feel their safety is threatened, they have no idea what is or isn't an appropriate response. Their innate need to defend themselves is short-circuited by fear of reprisal from the government that's supposed to be protecting them. It doesn't help, either, that calling the cops and getting someone arrested is essentially inviting the bad guy to seek revenge when his lawyer gets him a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[lookout123]

ah, screw it. move to arizona. you can open carry, conceal carry with an easily acquired permit, and if someone pisses you off we have plenty of open desert in which to bury the offending parties carcass.

[jaguar]

......so in all confrontations the only real solution, in your eyes, is to shoot them until they collapse in a bloody heap? I'm not using hyperbole here, that honestly seems to be what you're arguing.

[lookout123]

i was being over the top Jag.

i don't have any solutions to society's problems, but i do feel that anyone who so much as steps foot into my home without invitation should fall in a bloody heap. i don't care whether they are coming or going. if they hadn't entered my domain in the first place i wouldn't have had the reason to drop them.

to paraphrase Chris Rock - if you don't want the police to F with you, don't do stupid shit.

if you don't want me to shoot you, don't break into my home or illegally enter my property in any way. hell, if my truck is in the driveway and i see you break into it, i should be able to drop you. IMO.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jaguar

......so in all confrontations the only real solution, in your eyes, is to shoot them until they collapse in a bloody heap? I'm not using hyperbole here, that honestly seems to be what you're arguing.

No, a responsible shooter saves the firearm for use as a last resort.

And do you want to take the time to assess whether you're about to get killed or just mugged?

Any guy comes at me with a pipe or a knife gets to play christmas tree.

[jaguar]

was talking about noodle, he seemed to be implying that in any confrontational situation the only permanant solution was someone to die.

I disagree with you but *shrugs*.

[mrnoodle]

Or, in one sentence: If you try to victimize me in my home, I will kill you.

jag, if someone is mucking around your place, how can you possibly know what their intentions are? You already know they aren't good intentions, and they could include ending your life. Do you really want to take a chance on anything less than the strongest possible defense you can muster?

[jaguar]

TS:

It doesn't help, either, that calling the cops and getting someone arrested is essentially inviting the bad guy to seek revenge when his lawyer gets him a get-out-of-jail-free card.

This implies that unless you kill the guy, the problem isn't over, that was my gripe there.

Beyond that, the situations where people were jailed in UK were ones where they clearly weren't in personal danger yet still used or attempted to use deadly force. I don't think that's right, if someone is running away I don't give a fuck if they pissed on your cat and smashed your family photos, you shouldn't have the right to kill them. Same again, if you see some guy breaking into your car I don't think you should be able to empty a clip into him. If he turned around and came at you with a knife it's another story. In situations where you are in personal danger you are permitted to use deadly force until the threat is gone. In the UK that isn't in the vast majority of situations going to be a firearm, it could however be one of many other objects capable of killing someone. If someone came at me yes, I would almost certainly try and disable them in a way that would also kill them.

To nail this real nice and hard. If I was in say, Switzerland where I could quite reasonably and would probably own and have with me a pistol: Let's game it. I wake up, hear a noise, take out the gun, get up and go hunting, walk into living room, see a guy there. If he comes at me, I'm going to shoot him till he stops coming at me, if he runs off, I'm just going to make sure he's gone and call the cops.

I guess in short I value life, including criminals, higher than property.