I'm not a big Hillary Clinton fan but... - Page 3

garnet · 02-01-2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

I think the explosion of "pro-life" crisis pregnancy centers is a great example of the best possible way approach this problem.

"Explosion"? Where?

I agree that it's a good idea to these women options, but facilities offering real-world, practical solutions and help to these women after the baby is born are few and far between. The vast majority of the "crisis pregnancy centers" are run by extremist Chsristians who guilt their patrons into believing that abortion is wrong under any circumstances, and give them little if any assistance once the baby is born.

If anyone can offer solutions and assistance to pregnant women before and after the child is born, that's wonderful and I'm all in favor of it. I'm not convinced that the goal of many crisis pregnancy centers is helping women, children, or society--but rather pushing an agenda.

lookout123 · 02-01-2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

The vast majority of the "crisis pregnancy centers" are run by extremist Chsristians who guilt their patrons into believing that abortion is wrong under any circumstances, and give them little if any assistance once the baby is born.

well, that was phrased objectively. i know a couple of people that work in these centers, and as far as a i can tell their "agenda" is to help young women who are looking for assistance. but if they're christians, they must be extremists using every dirty trick in the book to advance a darkhearted cause.

Undertoad · 02-01-2005, 05:29 PM

Patently false; the mother's responsibility changes enormously after birth, otherwise adoption would not be possible.

BigV · 02-01-2005, 08:21 PM

For a murder to happen, a person has to be killed. If the an abortion is defined as murder, and the victim as a person, then much, much more should change to be consistent with the stance that the rights of the fetus/embryo/zygote include more that just protection from murder.

I find the prospect that the abortion of a zygote, while certainly “alive”, should, could be considered “murder” as sensible as the prospect that a woman carrying this zygote should be counted as two people in any other circumstance. If she drinks, smokes, or does any other legal physical activities minors are prohibited from, is she breaking the law? If “it’s” a person, and murder-able, why--no--how can the discussion stop there? Which brings me to…
The core question in the abortion debate:
"When does human personhood begin?"
A description of all viewpoints

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm

This is a calm, reasoned, informed discussion of the facts and opinions on all sides. I do not know of a “bright line” that separates one side from the other. I expect that search for such a line will be futile and acrimonious, because such a line does not exist. It is a range, not a point. At either end of the spectrum, the decision is clear, but in the immortal words of Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda, “What was that part in the middle?”. The middle (range) is the part where lots of stuff happens, including personhood. That’s where the answer lies, along a continuum. After all, we’re human beings, taking nine months to develop. For me the emphasis here is on the being, as an active verb, as well as a noun. We don’t talk of dead people as “human was’es” or of a pregnant woman’s baby as a “human will-be’s”.

In the Roe v Wade decision, dividing the pregnancy into trimesters seems a wise, Solomonic decision, the best possible resolution in a minefield of difficult choices. To consider the independent viability of the fetus in the first trimester to be approximately zero, the court concluded that the decision was a medical judgment to be decided by the woman and her physician. In the third trimester where viability is much more likely permitted the court to consider a fetus more like a person and entitled to more recognition as such.

The search for a single marker to define personhood, and from that murder, and medical procedure and everything in between is doomed.

Saying “I’m pregnant” doesn’t work in carpool lanes either, (except in California, predictably).

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20041122.html

garnet · 02-01-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

i know a couple of people that work in these centers, and as far as a i can tell their "agenda" is to help young women who are looking for assistance.

I also know a few people who work in a "crisis pregnancy center" through my niece's experience a couple years ago. She had already decided to terminate her pregnancy (she was 18 at the time) but went to one of these centers just to see what they had to say--afterall it was free, and "they sounded nice on the phone."

All I know is that I got a phone call from a crying, freaked out teenager who was just told that she was going to burn in hell, had bible quotes thrown in her face and was lied to about the rate of fetal development.

Hey, I'm sure your friends are real swell people and they'll go straight to heaven for their efforts. I hate what these assholes did to my niece, and thus the term "crisis pregnancy center" has a bit of a different meaning to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

but if they're christians, they must be extremists using every dirty trick in the book to advance a darkhearted cause.

Can you please quote where I said all Christians are evil? I don't recall saying that.

lookout123 · 02-01-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Hey, I'm sure your friends are real swell people and they'll go straight to heaven for their efforts. I hate what these assholes did to my niece, and thus the term "crisis pregnancy center" has a bit of a different meaning to me.

i don't speculate on who is going to be in heaven or hell. that is a personal thing.

but as far as your judgement of CPC's goes... if someone makes broadbrush, overgeneralized statements and assumptions of a minority group based on the actions of a few members of said group, you would call that person an ignorant racist. you do the same thing in regards to CPC counselors (who are generally christians) and it is acceptable? still seems ignorant and presumptive to me.

i am sorry that your niece dealt with ignorant fools, but that does not mean that all CPC's are the same.

garnet · 02-01-2005, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

you do the same thing in regards to CPC counselors (who are generally christians) and it is acceptable? still seems ignorant and presumptive to me.

i am sorry that your niece dealt with ignorant fools, but that does not mean that all CPC's are the same.

What exactly do you think "crisis pregnancy counselors" actually do? For the most part they are Christians (as you admit) who try to talk women out of getting abortions because it is "morally wrong." Do you think they care if that is the best decision for the woman or girl involved? No, they just don't want anyone to have an abortion, regardless of the situation, and for the most part their arguments are based on religion. To me, that's promoting an agenda--not helping people.

I'm sure the counselors you know are sweet as hell to you at church on Sunday, but have you ever sat before one of 'em as a confused teenager looking for OBJECTIVE answers to your questions? Perhaps you might see the situation in a different light if you had.

warch · 02-02-2005, 12:12 PM

The opposite of fundamentalism is feminism.

I am adamantly pro choice, which is pro woman, a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body. This is a personal, private medical issue.

Unwanted pregnancies will ALWAYS occur. Women will ALWAYS have abortions, always NEED abortions. The idea that we "just need to get back to chastity" (which I actually heard uttered by a prolife representative on the radio 2 weeks ago) When was that exactly? Are we talking belts here? I worry when the good old days are medieval.

So I've been thinking about the idea that the opposite of fundamentalism, here, in Kabul, in Tehran, is Feminism. Anyone else out there consider themselves a feminist?

wolf · 02-02-2005, 12:15 PM

Not since the definition of feminist somehow morphed into "Man-hating (lesbian) bitch".

But then I'm also not ashamed of having been born Caucasian.

Trilby · 02-02-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Not since the definition of feminist somehow morphed into "Man-hating (lesbian) bitch".

But then I'm also not ashamed of having been born Caucasian.

Yeah, I need a good working definition of "feminism".

warch · 02-02-2005, 01:38 PM

Feminist= Man hating lesbian bitch....hmmm. sounds like someone is hopped up on the fear-based, misogynistic Limbaugh soundbyte. That's no definition. Supporting women's human rights doesnt deny men theirs. Get over it.

warch · 02-02-2005, 01:43 PM

From the dictionary:
American Heritage
Feminism:
1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

Princeton:
1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women

wolf · 02-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Actually I developed my ideas regarding feminism during the ERA campaigns.

Flavored by being hoodwinked with a "Social Psychology" course that turned out to be "feminist social psychology."

I am woman, hear me roar, without the need to have some sort of affirmative action programs to get me ahead.

Trilby · 02-02-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Actually I developed my ideas regarding feminism during the ERA campaigns.

Flavored by being hoodwinked with a "Social Psychology" course that turned out to be "feminist social psychology."

I am woman, hear me roar, without the need to have some sort of affirmative action programs to get me ahead.

Yeah, but you're strong. A lot of women are...easily impressed (myself). I admire you. You've no need for nonsense bullshit man-stuff. A lot of women, apparently, do need this. You can't count yourself amongst the rabble. You, wolf, are a different breed of woman.

lookout123 · 02-02-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Supporting women's human rights doesnt deny men theirs. Get over it.

supporting human rights for women makes you a feminist? i thought it was just part of being an intelligent, unbiased individual.

02-01-2005, 08:21 PM	#4
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	The core question For a murder to happen, a person has to be killed. If the an abortion is defined as murder, and the victim as a person, then much, much more should change to be consistent with the stance that the rights of the fetus/embryo/zygote include more that just protection from murder. I find the prospect that the abortion of a zygote, while certainly “alive”, should, could be considered “murder” as sensible as the prospect that a woman carrying this zygote should be counted as two people in any other circumstance. If she drinks, smokes, or does any other legal physical activities minors are prohibited from, is she breaking the law? If “it’s” a person, and murder-able, why--no--how can the discussion stop there? Which brings me to… The core question in the abortion debate: "When does human personhood begin?" A description of all viewpoints http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm This is a calm, reasoned, informed discussion of the facts and opinions on all sides. I do not know of a “bright line” that separates one side from the other. I expect that search for such a line will be futile and acrimonious, because such a line does not exist. It is a range, not a point. At either end of the spectrum, the decision is clear, but in the immortal words of Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda, “What was that part in the middle?”. The middle (range) is the part where lots of stuff happens, including personhood. That’s where the answer lies, along a continuum. After all, we’re human beings, taking nine months to develop. For me the emphasis here is on the being, as an active verb, as well as a noun. We don’t talk of dead people as “human was’es” or of a pregnant woman’s baby as a “human will-be’s”. In the Roe v Wade decision, dividing the pregnancy into trimesters seems a wise, Solomonic decision, the best possible resolution in a minefield of difficult choices. To consider the independent viability of the fetus in the first trimester to be approximately zero, the court concluded that the decision was a medical judgment to be decided by the woman and her physician. In the third trimester where viability is much more likely permitted the court to consider a fetus more like a person and entitled to more recognition as such. The search for a single marker to define personhood, and from that murder, and medical procedure and everything in between is doomed. Saying “I’m pregnant” doesn’t work in carpool lanes either, (except in California, predictably). http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20041122.html __________________ Be Just and Fear Not. Last edited by BigV; 02-01-2005 at 08:28 PM. Reason: typo

02-02-2005, 12:15 PM	#9
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Not since the definition of feminist somehow morphed into "Man-hating (lesbian) bitch". But then I'm also not ashamed of having been born Caucasian. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-02-2005, 01:55 PM	#13
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Actually I developed my ideas regarding feminism during the ERA campaigns. Flavored by being hoodwinked with a "Social Psychology" course that turned out to be "feminist social psychology." I am woman, hear me roar, without the need to have some sort of affirmative action programs to get me ahead. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-01-2005, 05:29 PM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Patently false; the mother's responsibility changes enormously after birth, otherwise adoption would not be possible.

02-02-2005, 12:12 PM	#8
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	The opposite of fundamentalism is feminism. I am adamantly pro choice, which is pro woman, a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body. This is a personal, private medical issue. Unwanted pregnancies will ALWAYS occur. Women will ALWAYS have abortions, always NEED abortions. The idea that we "just need to get back to chastity" (which I actually heard uttered by a prolife representative on the radio 2 weeks ago) When was that exactly? Are we talking belts here? I worry when the good old days are medieval. So I've been thinking about the idea that the opposite of fundamentalism, here, in Kabul, in Tehran, is Feminism. Anyone else out there consider themselves a feminist?

02-02-2005, 01:38 PM	#11
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Feminist= Man hating lesbian bitch....hmmm. sounds like someone is hopped up on the fear-based, misogynistic Limbaugh soundbyte. That's no definition. Supporting women's human rights doesnt deny men theirs. Get over it.

02-02-2005, 01:43 PM	#12
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	From the dictionary: American Heritage Feminism: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. Princeton: 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women

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