How's This for Irony? - Page 2

Elspode · 01-12-2005, 01:51 PM

So Darwinism is compatible with Libertarianism...that's what I was thinking.

Clodfobble · 01-12-2005, 02:01 PM

So the argument that society should not intrude because it only affects me is a fallacy.

Yes, but a Libertarian would say do away with the (partially) socialized healthcare too, that way society wouldn't be paying for it.

Clodfobble · 01-12-2005, 03:15 PM

If the child is killed, there's no medical bills to pay for him anyway.

I wonder if that factors into the "more costly emergency room bills" statistic in general. It would seem that non-seatbelt wearers would be killed more frequently, and thus result in fewer medical bills than seatbelted people who required some amount of hospital care. But perhaps non-seatbelted folks, when they do make it to the hospital, require so much more care that it overshadows the total dollar amount of the seatbelted citizens.

OnyxCougar · 01-12-2005, 04:30 PM

It's the responsibility of the driver to ensure all passengers are obeying the laws of the state. Period. "I didn't know" doesn't work.

mrnoodle · 01-12-2005, 04:31 PM

Clodfobble, the latter is true, I would think. Someone who doesn't wear a seatbelt is more likely to be seriously injured in a fender-bender, of which there are millions more each year than high-speed collisions/rollovers/etc.

Cyber Wolf · 01-12-2005, 05:18 PM

As bright as this kid supposedly was, I think he was a bit off with the concept of choice. The way his article reads is that people don't have a choice whether or not to wear a seatbelt and have lost the ability to make that decision. This isn't the case. You always have the choice to or not to buckle up. The only thing the law does is punish the ones who are caught, it doesn't make you unable to drive off without buckling up.

It's just like drinking and driving. After drinking, you have the choice to get behind the wheel or not. If you do, you run the risk of (at the least) getting pulled over and ticketed/jailed for drunk driving or (at the worst) killing yourself and/or someone else. Sure, you could get home relatively safe and sound but that's not the point.

Lack of choice isn't what folks like this guy are really crying about, it's the consequences of the choice made. He didn't want to live with the consequences, and that's exactly what ended up happening. The only way you would actually not have the choice to drive without buckling is if the vehicle you drive is set up so that it will not start UNTIL the driver's seatbelt is buckled.

Unfortunately, he chose the wrong chalice and was destroyed. Being booksmart doesn't mean you know what's good for you.

dar512 · 01-12-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

Unfortunately, he chose the wrong chalice and was destroyed. Being booksmart doesn't mean you know what's good for you.

He chose ... poorly. [love that line]

Radar · 01-12-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Yes, but a Libertarian would say do away with the (partially) socialized healthcare too, that way society wouldn't be paying for it.

Correct.

Also it really doesn't matter what the insurance company would do. What they will or won't cover is between you and them when you make a contract. If they make a stipulation in your policy that anyone killed while not wearing a seatbelt is not covered, and you agree to it, you shouldn't get paid.

plthijinx · 01-12-2005, 09:43 PM

he made a choice and died as a result. personally, i wear my seatbelt because 1. it makes me feel more comfortable/secure and 2. i believe that it is safer. in the airplane, whether i'm the pilot or i'm on a major carrier as a passenger, i always wear my seatbelt, funny thing about turbulence......

anyway, he gambled and lost. sucks to be him.

garnet · 01-13-2005, 02:56 AM

Smart kid, and I think he had good points. But I think he was off the mark on a few things, including the following:

"If one is doing the math, that is more than $138 million spent on seat belt laws. But the kicker is this: It is estimated, by researchers for Congress, that only 6,100 lives are saved per year because of new seat belt wearers."

Is he saying that it isn't worth $138 million to save 6,100 lives? It's pretty hard to to put dollar figures on a human life, but I personally think that's a pretty good investment.

Clodfobble · 01-14-2005, 10:16 AM

And please, someone tell me why getting married lowers your rates? The way most couples treat each other in the car I would assume that accident rates go up after they tie the knot.

Because it's not that getting married makes you safer, it's that getting married (in theory) proves you were one of the safer ones to begin with. Safe drivers tend to be the settlin' down type, statistically.

Another silly way they calculate how safe of a driver you are: when I was in high school, I got a huge discount on my insurance if showed them I got straight A's.

plthijinx · 01-14-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

[i]Another silly way they calculate how safe of a driver you are: when I was in high school, I got a huge discount on my insurance if showed them I got straight A's.

??????? here in texas???

Kitsune · 01-14-2005, 07:05 PM

??????? here in texas???

Yeah -- straight As in Texas?

Speaking of insurance, do any of you pilots out there have a tough time getting life insurance?

garnet · 01-14-2005, 11:07 AM

I think what it comes down to is that the insurance companies can do almost anything they want, and we have no choice but to pay up. I don't get any breaks for having my car in a locked garage, although I think it would make perfect sense to do so.

People with bad credit get screwed with car insurance. One of my best friends is a very safe driver, never had a ticket or been in an accident. I always give her a hard time for driving too slow! But when she was getting divorced her husband maxed out all the credit cards, and she had to file bankruptcy. She now pays higher rates than me, even though I've had an accident and a couple tickets. She's technically a lower risk than I am, but she's still paying more. Not fair, but what can you do about it?

LabRat · 01-14-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garnet

People with bad credit get screwed with car insurance.... Not fair, but what can you do about it?

People with better credit (less debt to income ratio) are less likely to commit insurance fraud to make $$ to pay off their debt.

My husband is a new (less than 4yrs) insurance agent. So far, my favorite story is someone who called him for auto insurance a couple days after a very nasty storm went thru here, blowing lots and lots of trees down causing major damage. This person wanted full auto coverage, on an OLD car. After explaining everything and getting him pretty much ready to go, D told him he needed to take a picture of the vehicle before everything was complete. WHY?? was this fellows response, the car is fine... can't you do this without seeing the car?? Rrrriiiiiiiight, I BET your car is just fine.... he did not get insured by us

01-12-2005, 01:51 PM	#1
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	So Darwinism is compatible with Libertarianism...that's what I was thinking. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

01-12-2005, 04:30 PM	#4
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	It's the responsibility of the driver to ensure all passengers are obeying the laws of the state. Period. "I didn't know" doesn't work. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

01-12-2005, 04:31 PM	#5
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	Clodfobble, the latter is true, I would think. Someone who doesn't wear a seatbelt is more likely to be seriously injured in a fender-bender, of which there are millions more each year than high-speed collisions/rollovers/etc. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

01-12-2005, 05:18 PM	#6
Cyber Wolf As stable as a ring of PU-239 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites Posts: 1,264	As bright as this kid supposedly was, I think he was a bit off with the concept of choice. The way his article reads is that people don't have a choice whether or not to wear a seatbelt and have lost the ability to make that decision. This isn't the case. You always have the choice to or not to buckle up. The only thing the law does is punish the ones who are caught, it doesn't make you unable to drive off without buckling up. It's just like drinking and driving. After drinking, you have the choice to get behind the wheel or not. If you do, you run the risk of (at the least) getting pulled over and ticketed/jailed for drunk driving or (at the worst) killing yourself and/or someone else. Sure, you could get home relatively safe and sound but that's not the point. Lack of choice isn't what folks like this guy are really crying about, it's the consequences of the choice made. He didn't want to live with the consequences, and that's exactly what ended up happening. The only way you would actually not have the choice to drive without buckling is if the vehicle you drive is set up so that it will not start UNTIL the driver's seatbelt is buckled. Unfortunately, he chose the wrong chalice and was destroyed. Being booksmart doesn't mean you know what's good for you. __________________ "I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens "I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens Last edited by Cyber Wolf; 01-12-2005 at 05:21 PM.

01-12-2005, 09:43 PM	#9
plthijinx Master Dwellar Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,197	he made a choice and died as a result. personally, i wear my seatbelt because 1. it makes me feel more comfortable/secure and 2. i believe that it is safer. in the airplane, whether i'm the pilot or i'm on a major carrier as a passenger, i always wear my seatbelt, funny thing about turbulence...... anyway, he gambled and lost. sucks to be him. __________________ For your dreams to come true, you must first have a dream.

01-12-2005, 02:01 PM	#2
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	So the argument that society should not intrude because it only affects me is a fallacy. Yes, but a Libertarian would say do away with the (partially) socialized healthcare too, that way society wouldn't be paying for it.

01-12-2005, 03:15 PM	#3
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	If the child is killed, there's no medical bills to pay for him anyway. I wonder if that factors into the "more costly emergency room bills" statistic in general. It would seem that non-seatbelt wearers would be killed more frequently, and thus result in fewer medical bills than seatbelted people who required some amount of hospital care. But perhaps non-seatbelted folks, when they do make it to the hospital, require so much more care that it overshadows the total dollar amount of the seatbelted citizens.

01-13-2005, 02:56 AM	#10
garnet ... Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 657	Smart kid, and I think he had good points. But I think he was off the mark on a few things, including the following: "If one is doing the math, that is more than $138 million spent on seat belt laws. But the kicker is this: It is estimated, by researchers for Congress, that only 6,100 lives are saved per year because of new seat belt wearers." Is he saying that it isn't worth $138 million to save 6,100 lives? It's pretty hard to to put dollar figures on a human life, but I personally think that's a pretty good investment.

01-14-2005, 10:16 AM	#11
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	And please, someone tell me why getting married lowers your rates? The way most couples treat each other in the car I would assume that accident rates go up after they tie the knot. Because it's not that getting married makes you safer, it's that getting married (in theory) proves you were one of the safer ones to begin with. Safe drivers tend to be the settlin' down type, statistically. Another silly way they calculate how safe of a driver you are: when I was in high school, I got a huge discount on my insurance if showed them I got straight A's.

01-14-2005, 07:05 PM	#13
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	??????? here in texas??? Yeah -- straight As in Texas? Speaking of insurance, do any of you pilots out there have a tough time getting life insurance? Last edited by Kitsune; 01-14-2005 at 07:11 PM.

01-14-2005, 11:07 AM	#14
garnet ... Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 657	I think what it comes down to is that the insurance companies can do almost anything they want, and we have no choice but to pay up. I don't get any breaks for having my car in a locked garage, although I think it would make perfect sense to do so. People with bad credit get screwed with car insurance. One of my best friends is a very safe driver, never had a ticket or been in an accident. I always give her a hard time for driving too slow! But when she was getting divorced her husband maxed out all the credit cards, and she had to file bankruptcy. She now pays higher rates than me, even though I've had an accident and a couple tickets. She's technically a lower risk than I am, but she's still paying more. Not fair, but what can you do about it?

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