More news from Git-Mo - Page 2

Undertoad · 11-09-2004, 08:22 AM

When did you stop torturing your wife?

It's not a blame-the-administration game, it's a blame-the-US game -- which offends middle America more deeply than religious differences, I'd bet.

Yes, perhaps those desert Arabs were merely in wintry Afghanistan to charitably help with the annual poppy harvest and now the US has turned them into violent anti-US terrorists. I kinda doubt it though.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It's not a blame-the-administration game, it's a blame-the-US game -- which offends middle America more deeply than religious differences, I'd bet.

That is completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Yes, perhaps those desert Arabs were merely in wintry Afghanistan to charitably help with the annual poppy harvest and now the US has turned them into violent anti-US terrorists. I kinda doubt it though.

Of course. All the people in Gitmo are "desert Arabs". How could I be so blind. All is well.

jaguar · 11-09-2004, 09:06 AM

If you think the death of Osama would end this 'war', you're at most half as smart as I thought you were. The very nature of what's going on not to mention asymmeterical war in general means that torture is at best, counterproductive and lets not mince words, what goes on in that place is state-sanctioned torture plain and simple, just as bad as Saddam's or Kim's or Pinochet's torture.

Beestie · 11-09-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

If you think the death of Osama would end this 'war', you're at most half as smart as I thought you were. The very nature of what's going on not to mention asymmeterical war in general means that torture is at best, counterproductive and lets not mince words, what goes on in that place is state-sanctioned torture plain and simple, just as bad as Saddam's or Kim's or Pinochet's torture.

I don't think that the war will be over anytime soon much less when Osama is neutralized. I actually think all hell is going to break loose once we capture him and hope we have the good sense to make him "disappear" rather than have him do the perp walk. The last thing we need to do is make a martyr out of our enemy's hero. I was giving an example that if someone did know where he was than he wasn't going home until he told his captors where he was.

I later said that when the war is over, we can all go home.

But, you didn't address my question: what would you do if you were in charge of managing these people and your loyalty (try not to choke) was to the people of the United States. What do you think John Kerry would do had he been elected. At some point, all this criticism needs to evolve into an alternative and the downside of the alternatives needs to be ackknowledged.

jaguar · 11-09-2004, 11:47 AM

The only way not to make Osama into a real matyr is to have him die free of kidney failure.

The difference is whether you look at the long term of the short term. In the short term you might catch the leader(s) of Islamic Terrorist Group #1532 and stop a bomb attack in X. On the downside the actions of the US since the 9/11 attacks has inflamed world opinion, galvanised the Islamic world's opinion of the US and alienated traditional allies. In the long run, which is better at keeping america safe?

Beestie · 11-09-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

On the downside the actions of the US since the 9/11 attacks has inflamed world opinion, galvanised the Islamic world's opinion of the US and alienated traditional allies. In the long run, which is better at keeping america safe?

Our actions prior to 9/11 didn't exactly prevent 9/11. Clinton (I don't blame him for Sep 11 nor do I question his tactics) used a much more targeted approach and didn't alienate anyone in the process and look where that got us.

These people have been after our asses since the 70s if not longer and it doesn't seem to matter how "politely" we fight back - they still come at us harder and harder. They attacked when Carter was president, when Reagan was president, When Bush's I and II were president and when Clinton was president. Over that range of Commanders in Chief, we have fought the fight any way you can imagine but the resolve of the terrorists has not diminished in the least.

So, given that, how do you suggest we defend ourselves?

11-09-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

So, given that, how do you suggest we defend ourselves?

Uhmmmm, work toward energy self-sufficiency here at home via synfuels, alternative energy supplies, and tax breaks for those companies which come up with more efficient ways of using non-renewable resources? That way we wouldn't have to meddle with the Mid-East. Nah, too obvious!

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2004, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

So, given that, how do you suggest we defend ourselves?

A terrorist attack is designed to prove the vulnerability of an enemy and goad the enemy into an action which decreases sympathy for them among moderates. Their goal is to play the matador, with flashy, dramatic stabs resulting in powerful lunges in the wrong direction.

What do we do? I'm no genius. The solution to terrorism isn't likely to show up on the pages of the Cellar. But if you act out the caricature of the "Great Satan", the moderates will start to secretly root for the terrorists, and the borderline people will join them. A war in the Middle East is much more than a military exercise, it really is a war for "hearts and minds". In this war, even more than in all others so far, the US must be scrupulously and dramatically ethical, moral, and fair. Otherwise we are like Mickey with the axe in Fantasia.

russotto · 11-09-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

On the downside the actions of the US since the 9/11 attacks has inflamed world opinion, galvanised the Islamic world's opinion of the US and alienated traditional allies. In the long run, which is better at keeping america safe?

Number of incidents at the World Trade Center while the US was playing Mr. Nice Guy: 2.

Number of incidents since W decided to be a real meany: 0

Looks like galvanizing Islamic world's opinion against the US (which is effectively a no-op anyway) is safer.

garnet · 11-09-2004, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russotto

Number of incidents since W decided to be a real meany: 0

Looks like galvanizing Islamic world's opinion against the US (which is effectively a no-op anyway) is safer.

Yeah, invading Iraq sure calmed down all those people in the Middle East who hate our guts. They're so scared of George W. Bush that they'll never do any mean terrorist things again.

Yeah right.

flippant · 11-09-2004, 01:35 PM

"Desert Arabs" is a convenient term and now politically correct?....but hey does anyone remember the college students that hit the slammer when trying to register for a new semester? Do you remember the American Arab dropout rate from american civilian and agency pressures? No? Was that too long and inconvenient ago? All the warrents posted over addresses that weren't up to date? Please....Arrests were made here FIRST. And yes at times THEY WERE completely random....so don't even begin to tell me, as I was on the board of the _ _ _ _ at that time having a very difficult time ........ Powerless. Many average kids suffered in almost every major city.....just trying on a new semester...these were Americans.....maybe even your neighbors. Please...desert arabs whatever.... In New York random people were found and taken as a clear numbers issue.. let's just not get into this until you know what you are saying.

Undertoad · 11-09-2004, 01:43 PM

We were talking about Git-mo flip, so you are welcome to shut up at any time.

11-09-2004, 01:59 PM

I think the incidents Flip cites are quite relevant to the Gitmo discussion. She is talking about innocent people with Arab surnames who were wrongfully arrested or discriminated against. People are upset about the Gitmo situation because of the possiblity of the wrongful detention of innocent people. If the people at Gitmo are enemy combatants, and I'm sure many are, then the US is obligated to treat them under the rules of the Geneva convention. It's not.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2004, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

We were talking about Git-mo flip, so you are welcome to shut up at any time.

Given the extreme reluctance of the administration to release identifying information on the people in Gitmo, why do you say they're all desert arabs?

flippant · 11-09-2004, 01:54 PM

Oh was I too direct......did I not throw in enough racist slang?

11-09-2004, 09:06 AM	#3
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	If you think the death of Osama would end this 'war', you're at most half as smart as I thought you were. The very nature of what's going on not to mention asymmeterical war in general means that torture is at best, counterproductive and lets not mince words, what goes on in that place is state-sanctioned torture plain and simple, just as bad as Saddam's or Kim's or Pinochet's torture. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

11-09-2004, 11:47 AM	#5
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	The only way not to make Osama into a real matyr is to have him die free of kidney failure. The difference is whether you look at the long term of the short term. In the short term you might catch the leader(s) of Islamic Terrorist Group #1532 and stop a bomb attack in X. On the downside the actions of the US since the 9/11 attacks has inflamed world opinion, galvanised the Islamic world's opinion of the US and alienated traditional allies. In the long run, which is better at keeping america safe? __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

11-09-2004, 01:35 PM	#11
flippant shameless....so stop trying so hard....-me Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado location* Posts: 215	"Desert Arabs" is a convenient term and now politically correct?....but hey does anyone remember the college students that hit the slammer when trying to register for a new semester? Do you remember the American Arab dropout rate from american civilian and agency pressures? No? Was that too long and inconvenient ago? All the warrents posted over addresses that weren't up to date? Please....Arrests were made here FIRST. And yes at times THEY WERE completely random....so don't even begin to tell me, as I was on the board of the _ _ _ _ at that time having a very difficult time ........ Powerless. Many average kids suffered in almost every major city.....just trying on a new semester...these were Americans.....maybe even your neighbors. Please...desert arabs whatever.... In New York random people were found and taken as a clear numbers issue.. let's just not get into this until you know what you are saying. Last edited by flippant; 11-09-2004 at 01:37 PM.

11-09-2004, 08:22 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	When did you stop torturing your wife? It's not a blame-the-administration game, it's a blame-the-US game -- which offends middle America more deeply than religious differences, I'd bet. Yes, perhaps those desert Arabs were merely in wintry Afghanistan to charitably help with the annual poppy harvest and now the US has turned them into violent anti-US terrorists. I kinda doubt it though.

11-09-2004, 01:43 PM	#12
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	We were talking about Git-mo flip, so you are welcome to shut up at any time.

11-09-2004, 01:59 PM	#13
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I think the incidents Flip cites are quite relevant to the Gitmo discussion. She is talking about innocent people with Arab surnames who were wrongfully arrested or discriminated against. People are upset about the Gitmo situation because of the possiblity of the wrongful detention of innocent people. If the people at Gitmo are enemy combatants, and I'm sure many are, then the US is obligated to treat them under the rules of the Geneva convention. It's not.

11-09-2004, 01:54 PM	#15
flippant shameless....so stop trying so hard....-me Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado location* Posts: 215	Oh was I too direct......did I not throw in enough racist slang?

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