Subterranean Power Line Blues

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

...fucking your actual own self?

Well, there'd be no arguing over who pays for breakfast...

[tw]

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

Well, there'd be no arguing over who pays for breakfast...

?

Oh, some kind of extremist joke.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I was pondering the car electric thing. Most states, I'd say all but I'm not sure, the state grants the electric company a monopoly, with the stipulation they provide as much power as the public wants. In return the state sets the prices to guarantee the company makes money. In PA at least they altered the agreement so you can buy power from other sources, but it still has to be delivered by the same state certified monopoly.

These cars will cause increased demand... big time, which means lots of money laid out for more infrastructure. Not just generating equipment, with the increased load the distribution network will have to be beefed up considerably, from transformers right down to the wire on the poles in some areas. Of course the rates must go up to cover those expenses because of the make money guaranty.
So everyone wins... except us.

[Undertoad]

If the cars charge at work, during the day, that will be a problem. But if they charge after midnight, when usage is down, it won't require any additional infrastructure at all, because all the charging will be off peak.

But also, home electricity usage is down like 8% in the last decade. We keep on installing energy-efficient lighting and appliances and heaters. For decades and decades, we added more electrical infrastructure because people used more energy every year; but in developed countries, usage has flattened and/or fallen in the last 20 years.

The reason people need 240v chargers is that they want to charge quickly. But the average driver can get enough charge overnight on a 120v outlet. (On 120v, it only charges about 3 miles/hour, but the average car is only driven 30 miles/day.)

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The reason people need 240v chargers is that they want to charge quickly. But the average driver can get enough charge overnight on a 120v outlet. (On 120v, it only charges about 3 miles/hour, but the average car is only driven 30 miles/day.)

I wonder how much of an electric car's cost is in the battery, and if providing a battery that is roughly one tenth the capacity of a typical Tesla but is still able to get the average person to work and back would be of interest to anyone. If it was cheap enough, it might be.

I like to take road trips some times and want a 300 mile range, but if I had a second commuter car, I might be happy with a 30 mile range on that one if it was cheap enough.

*considers it for a bit*

Nah. I would want a 300 mile range, just in case.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The reason people need 240v chargers is that they want to charge quickly.

240 volt charges only mean wires can be smaller - less expensive. 120 volt chargers means more receptacles are available. Nothing more.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If the cars charge at work, during the day, that will be a problem.

You gotta be kidding me, nobody I ever worked for would stand for that. Parking lots would look like drive in movies or the lots at the U of Alaska, Fairbanks.

But if they charge after midnight, when usage is down, it won't require any additional infrastructure at all, because all the charging will be off peak.

I love you. Not now honey, it's midnight I have to go plug in the car.
No, they'll plug it in when they get home at 6 PM in case they have to run out during the evening and need those extra miles, and that's peak time. I'm betting damn few would be happy with 110 volt chargers.
Oh but the chargers have a timer to turn them on at midnight. Great, now everyone on the block turns them on at the same time. Remember what happens to the city water pressure at superbowl halftime?

But also, home electricity usage is down like 8% in the last decade. We keep on installing energy-efficient lighting and appliances and heaters. For decades and decades, we added more electrical infrastructure because people used more energy every year; but in developed countries, usage has flattened and/or fallen in the last 20 years.

This is true, baby steps in efficiency have added up. Now everyone on the block adds a power hog and the lines start to glow in the dark. Amperage up, resistance up, voltage down.

The reason people need 240v chargers is that they want to charge quickly. But the average driver can get enough charge overnight on a 120v outlet. (On 120v, it only charges about 3 miles/hour, but the average car is only driven 30 miles/day.)

The average driver only exists on paper. Plus there's a lot of houses with several drivers and either several vehicles or the vehicles are driven at all hours. That doesn't work with 110 volt chargers.

A couple years back Philadelphia Electric Company did away with off peak rates, I wonder if other electric suppliers have also?

Yeah glatt, and hope you don't get caught in traffic, plus wear your long underwear in winter, bathing suit in summer, because the heater/AC draws too much juice.
I do not want a car that isn't available when I need/want it.

[Undertoad]

the chargers have a timer to turn them on at midnight

Not the chargers, the cars; the cars know how much juice they need and stuff

Remember what happens to the city water pressure at superbowl halftime?

That's an urban myth actually!

hope you don't get caught in traffic

An EV doesn't use fuel when caught in traffic, except for as you said, AC and heat and such.

I wouldn't have one as the only household vehicle. But I did look at the number of times I actually drove 250* miles in one shot over the last 3 years, and it was one time. Hmm.

Your mileage may vary!

I do not want a car that isn't available when I need/want it.

That's a wash, because an EV doesn't have a wildly complicated cooling system, alternator, transmission, fuel+oil level/quality/pump/filtering and everything else that can fail in the middle of a trip.


*standard range Model 3, if charged to 100%. (Long range Model 3 = 322 miles)

[Undertoad]

Just finished that and got on the phone with J, she decided to only fill her car up halfway because the only available gas station is in a terrible area of the city.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You gotta be kidding me, nobody I ever worked for would stand for that. Parking lots would look like drive in movies or the lots at the U of Alaska, Fairbanks.

My employer has parking structures with a few chargers. With more demand, a few can turn into many.

The average driver only exists on paper.

I don't think there's anything magical about driving exactly 30 miles a day. If 30 is the average, then there's a lot of people driving less.

As it happens, I actually do drive pretty close to 30 miles a day.

But I will say, as much as I support Tesla, I'd only get an electric car if I did have a garage with a 220 volt charger. Maybe in 20 years you'll be able to plug into a lamppost, but getting charging done when I have street parking would be way too much of a hassle.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Not the chargers, the cars; the cars know how much juice they need and stuff

No matter how, they're all turned on at once.

I wouldn't have one as the only household vehicle. But I did look at the number of times I actually drove 250* miles in one shot over the last 3 years, and it was one time. Hmm.
Your mileage may vary!

My mileage varies.

That's a wash, because an EV doesn't have a wildly complicated cooling system, alternator, transmission, fuel+oil level/quality/pump/filtering and everything else that can fail in the middle of a trip.

None of those things are a problem with proper maintenance, and that's something that anyone can do themselves pretty cheap. But if one of those things pops up on the road it can usually be repaired or jerry rigged to get you going with a few simple tools, duct tape clamps, hose, wire, etc. When your Tesla dies in the middle of east bumfuck what next?

*standard range Model 3, if charged to 100%. (Long range Model 3 = 322 miles)

Yeah, like the sticker on the widow that says how many miles per gallon you'll get. "Your mileage may vary"

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Just finished that and got on the phone with J, she decided to only fill her car up halfway because the only available gas station is in a terrible area of the city.

Lack of available gas stations? She must be running on fumes. Half a tank doesn't help because the exposure is stopping at all. Oh,and tell her running it below an eighth of a tank in winter and a third of a tank in summer can kill a fuel pump.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

My employer has parking structures with a few chargers. With more demand, a few can turn into many.

Parking structure? Like a garage? I'd say your employer is definitely in the minority. I wonder if the garage in NYC that charge $2,000 a month(including tax) have chargers?

I don't think there's anything magical about driving exactly 30 miles a day. If 30 is the average, then there's a lot of people driving less.

No it's not magical but I question first of all if it's realistic, and secondly if it should be used used to make decisions of practicality.

But I will say, as much as I support Tesla, I'd only get an electric car if I did have a garage with a 220 volt charger. Maybe in 20 years you'll be able to plug into a lamppost, but getting charging done when I have street parking would be way too much of a hassle.

Plug into lamppost with a credit card? Yeah that would work except between lampposts, and you know the fat bastard next door always parks his gasoline car next to the damn post.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No matter how, they're all turned on at once.

If that's a problem, the cars can be told to change behavior over the air.

But if one of those [fuel pumps] pops up on the road it can usually be repaired or jerry rigged to get you going with a few simple tools, duct tape clamps, hose, wire, etc.
...
Oh,and tell her running it below an eighth of a tank in winter and a third of a tank in summer can kill a fuel pump.

Ah you got rabbit season/duck season'd there into listing a weird thing that happens to gas cars that have a fuel pump.

When your Tesla dies in the middle of east bumfuck what next?

The car notifies you that something happened via your phone so you can call Tesla Roadside Assistance. That should be much more rare than a standard car but it just happened to the Car and Driver long-term test vehicle :|

I wonder if the garage in NYC that charge $2,000 a month(including tax) have chargers?

yes

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If that's a problem, the cars can be told to change behavior over the air.

So now your car isn't getting charged when you think it is and you might not even know it.
That's another thing the manufacturer making changes to suit their purposes may not be changes I want. If they can do it over the air then it can be hacked. You could be hijacked/kidnapped and the car takes you to the kidnapper so he doesn't even have to put his coat on.

Ah you got rabbit season/duck season'd there into listing a weird thing that happens to gas cars that have a fuel pump.

Rabbit, duck, say what? Internal combustion engines have lots of moving parts that need cooling and lubrication, plus the auxiliary systems they tack on like cabin climate control, power brakes and steering. Electric motors are simpler and powerful, but batteries suck. They make refueling slow and cumbersome. I've been hearing rumblings about capacitors instead of batteries that are quick to recharge. I rather see a hybrid that has a small engine and generator to keep me moving when the juice runs out.

The car notifies you that something happened via your phone so you can call Tesla Roadside Assistance. That should be much more rare than a standard car but it just happened to the Car and Driver long-term test vehicle :|

The car calls you on the phone? Wouldn't you notice the car you're in has stopped moving? Ah well, the NSA will love these cars, they'll know where you are all the time.

yes

That's a good start if you use one of those garages and in Manhattan street parking is like hen's teeth.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

240 volt charges only mean wires can be smaller - less expensive. 120 volt chargers means more receptacles are available. Nothing more.

The 120 volt charger will add between 2 and 4 miles range per hour charge on a Tesla. The 240 volt charger produces between 26 and 30 miles per charge hour.

Tesla claims 3 to 4 on a 120 volt and 27 on a 240 volt, but the 2 to 4 and 26 to 30 come from the Tesla owners forum members actual experience.

I read the battery life will extend considerably if you set the maximum charge at 90%. I'd read that about cell phones too.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No it's not magical but I question first of all if it's realistic, and secondly if it should be used used to make decisions of practicality.

Those decisions are on an individual basis, and some of those individuals are the ones who pull the average down to 30 miles/day.


(Turns out I'm not pulling that average much in either direction: My average is 29.15 miles per day.)