What If...

[sexobon]

Common law would levy the requirement of proportionality of punishment to offense. The Golden Rule would essentially be in effect.

[Happy Monkey]

People performing a lynching typically aren't capable of putting themselves in another's shoes, which is a requirement for implementing the golden rule.

[sexobon]

And the State (we the people), with all of its laws and judicial procedures, has incarcerated and executed innocent people for crimes they didn't commit. Other than no system is perfect, what's your point?
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[henry quirk]

The 'or else'?

Subjective: to a degree, yeah.

Purely: no.

Justice, by definition, is the balancing of scales.

Eye for an eye; not eye for a pinched candy bar.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

The very best law legislates as little as possible, with the broad rule that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted.

What is good and right and honorable in American law started here.

Yes it did and that let people with money and connections run roughshod over the commoners, from slavery, to indentured servants, to the company store.
Worse yet these robber barons and their friends caused depressions where people actually starved to death, repeatedly. After the one leading up to WW I, then the one in the 1930's, FDR said fuck this, I'm tired of you fucking the people, shit's going to change.

He passed laws to protect people by regulating abusive businesses, then WWII got the economy moving. After the war the rise of regulations and labor unions(for all their faults) raised prosperity for all... except them negroes, and Mexicans, and Chinks, and lowlife musicians.

It's been proven over and over if a violation has to be adjudicated, the one with money/power/connections wins. The only way to stop the bastards is to spell it out, chapter and verse, so you have them dead to rights.

And you can’t. People are going to think whatever they think, and you cannot do a single thing to force them to be better, but by trying to force people to think thoughts YOU approve of, you can make the situation a whole lot worse. And not just for them. For yourself.

You can’t make people like you, you can’t make people respect you, and you can’t make people believe that whatever way you are that’s different than the way they are is good, or okay.

Right, you can't make people like people they have already decided they don't like. That's human nature. But you can sure as hell make it illegal to attack them, burn their house, refuse them services of a public store or real estate rental.

Or you can embrace the Philosophy of the Wide-Open Field, which starts with “Everything that is not forbidden is permitted,” and which is protected by the Rule of The Wide-Open Field:
MYODBAKYHTY
Pronounced Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.
MYODBAKYHTY: Mind Your Own Damn Business, And Keep Your Hands To Yourself.

If you leave the Wide-Open Field wide open, there will be room enough in it for you to be whoever you are.

Historically that's led to mob rule.
Hey Jeb, that guy done me wrong and the law won't do nothing, so let's string him up.

MYODBAKYHTY.
Say it with me. Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.
It is the simple rule that grants broad and amazing freedom. When you live by this rule, and this is the rule enforced by the law…
No one else needs to like you.
No one else needs to respect you.
Bastards can fucking HATE you… IF they mind their own business and keep their hands to themselves.

As I said, as a country, been there, done that, didn't work.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

People performing a lynching typically aren't capable of putting themselves in another's shoes, which is a requirement for implementing the golden rule.

Wait, the golden rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Who says I wish they would lynch me??


Hey Henry, I got one for your side.

In 2008 Chicago collected $28,3 million (@ $3 and hour), from 36,000 parking meters.
Starting in 2009, Mayor Daley leased the meters, $1.16 Billion for 75 years, half the meters going to the Abu Dhabi Government. In 2013 it was up to $6.50 an hour. They have collected $1.2 Billion so far, $1,72 million in 2018 alone, and another 62 years to go.
Oh, and the city has to get permission to close a street for a parade or block party.

You're welcome.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

People performing a lynching typically aren't capable of putting themselves in another's shoes, which is a requirement for implementing the golden rule.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Wait, the golden rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Who says I wish they would lynch me??

Indeed. Mob rule does not indicate that the golden rule is in effect.

[henry quirk]

Putting things on a scale (safety at one end, freedom at the other), most folks look for a sweet spot between the two.

It's a mistake of course cuz the sweet spot gets shifted slowly and surely over to 'safety' by those who look to profit (in one way or another).

These profiteers don't have to work very hard cuz most folks, it seems, are easily hoodwinked into trading off autonomy in an effort to preserve autonomy.

Me: I skew heavily toward 'freedom'.

Hyper-aware of even the smallest encroachment, folks like me rage and stew.

We see the bars of the cage and hate them and we hate 'you' cuz you defend the cage.

I believe that cage ultimately will open to the chute leading to the abattoir.

I believe 'you' will walk calmly, mebbe even happily, to the killing floor cuz you simply don't know any better.

As you like.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What? You don't want to trade your privacy for the illusion of security?

[Undertoad]

Putting things on a scale (safety at one end, freedom at the other)

Arnold Kling, in his book "The Three Languages of Politics", published in full at this Cato link, says that, basically:

Liberals see the world as a battle between victims and oppressors.

Conservatives see the world as a battle between civilization and barbarism.

Libertarians see the world as a battle between freedom and coercion.

I have not read the full book as of yet.

Everybody has their different frameworks. All three of these are important. The tendency is to pick one and see everything else along that viewpoint. My guess now is that all of human governance doesn't actually solve for just one variable. And that it's human nature itself that won't permit it.

~ but that's just a guess, carry on ~

[xoxoxoBruce]

My view is red hot,
Your view ain't diddly squat.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Liberals see the world as a battle between victims and oppressors.

Conservatives see the world as a battle between civilization and barbarism.

Libertarians see the world as a battle between freedom and coercion.

This rings true.

Random thoughts; Does this explain why Republicans, who appeared to liberals to get virtually everything they wanted out of Obama, are still pissed off? That alliance between conservatives and libertarians is untenable especially if both thoughts are in the same head. The disappearance of good government types might be explained.

[Undertoad]

Virtually everything they wanted, no. During Obama, cultural conservatives finally lost the previous culture war; and then, cultural liberals dunked on them, and then did a little superior dance and victory lap. That's why they are still angry and why they like it when Trump makes the liberals apoplectic

[Griff]

From the liberals perspective, Obama pushed through a center-right (progressive Republican?) healthcare program for his sole victory. He then saw same continuously attacked after losing Congress. He stabilized a collapsing economic system pleasing almost no-one. The culture war dunk was style not substance. Obama said nice things about previously shunned people but in the end lost the Supreme Court for a generation. As soon as he left, the Ryan/Trump tax victory made sure we'd never pay down his and W's bills creating a benefits cutting imperative threatening Social Security etc.. So style wise yeah the GOP had to look at a black woman's shoulders for eight years but our judicial branch remains firmly in the hands of right wing culture warriors. The only reason the "Deep State" also known as the Executive Branch isn't hammering through major right wing regulatory changes is that Trump didn't actually have sensible ideas and was too stupid to put a transition team in place two years ago. The professionals are still doing their jobs following Obama era directives absent actual leadership.

[henry quirk]

I did. Kling muddies the water.

His 'three axes' model folds neatly into this...

communitarian--------------------libertarian

'progressives' & 'conservatives' both sit on the communitarian end of the scale. championing victims and bringing down oppressors, and, preserving civilization from barbarians, amount to the same thing (straightjackets all 'round!).

[henry quirk]

I did. Kling muddies the water.

His 'three axes' model folds neatly into this...

communitarian--------------------libertarian

'progressives' & 'conservatives' both sit on the communitarian end of the scale. Championing victims and bringing down oppressors, and, preserving civilization from barbarians, amount to the same thing (*straightjackets all 'round!).

Simply: you progressives want them oppressive conservatives hobbled, and the conservatives want you barbaric progressives hobbled and folks like me want all of you to just leave us be. Folks like me don't wanna oppress you or your counterparts and 'we' don't wanna break whatever it is your counterparts (or you) think of as civilization. Folks like me try real hard to mind their own business and keep their hands to themselves. Least you folks could do is leave us alone as you go about your dumb lil 'culture wars'.

But: you won't.


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*in other words: all them regs and laws most of you folks think are so keen