Carlo Giuliani vs. corporate juggernaut

[serge]

[jaguar]

err....................GOd i didn't need to see that at 10 in the morning after getting home at four: i almost spewed my morning coffee
>=(
What the hell is this about?

[Hubris Boy]

Sequence of events as I understand them:[list=1][*]Vandals and hooligans (aka "protesters")* run amok throughout the city, hurling firebombs, looting local businesses and assaulting the police.
[*]Small group of vandals and hooligans hooligans manage to corner a much smaller group of riot police. Vandals and hooligans begin to assault trapped police officers with bricks, rocks, spears (yes, I said spears), large pieces of lumber, etc.
[*]Trapped police officers prepare to force an exit.
[*]Particularly stupid hooligan (Signore Giuliani) attempts to bludgeon one of the police officers with a fire extinguisher. (If you don't believe a fire extinguisher can be a dangerous weapon, drop one on your foot.)
[*]Police officer shoots stupid hooligan in the head.
[*]Darwin smiles.

(* Please note: "protesters" != "vandals and hooligans". Most of the protesters in Genoa are reasonably law-abiding types, seeking to air their grievances in a non-violent manner.[/list=1]
The moral of this story: If you pull a black ski mask over your face and use a fire extinguisher to attack a cop, don't be surprised when he shoots you.

[elSicomoro]

This is almost commonplace now...

I don't agree with half of the things that the protestors "protest" about. However, they have the right to demonstrate peacefully...and these idiots go out there and ruin things for everyone involved. Seattle was completely caught off-guard by these nuts. Not to mention, it makes the G-8 look like bigger assholes than they already are.

[jaguar]

Hubris Boy, sorry but your wrong on a few counts.

Yes there are/were a smallish number of hardcore anarchists running amock, this guy was one of them. While carrying a fire extinguisher towards an ARMOURED LAND CRUSIER he was shot twice the head by a cop INSIDE the cruiser. The vehicle then apparently backed over him, possibly repeatedly. - in other words the cop was in basically 0 direct danger, he has since been charged with murder, and rightly so.

There is another key point here, he shot him clean in the HEAD, cops are taught how to shoot to disarm but not kill, this guy wanted to kill, if he wanted to stop he throwing it surely he could have shot him in the chest/shoulder which would have made him drop it but is far less likely to kill him that between the eyes.

I don't agree with the methods of anarchists, they are counterproductive, but I like huge group of people protesting such meetings in a peaceful manor. Also please, remember cops don't play fair, I was at the S11 rally in Melbourne last year. In some of the batten charges they just randomly hit people around the head with 3 foot long steel poles, often these people were just standing on the sidelines, some of the cops just went rabid and hit anything that wasn’t wearing blue, and the court cases which have recently been won here prove it.

2 sides to ever story - I'm getting my information from the Age newspaper here, which is the biggest and leans slightly conservative so....

Also note that amongst the 124 non police injured (64 cops injured) were 10 journos who were apparently beaten despite wearing ID gear..

When they can raise nearly 100,000 people onto the streets, its sure sign to me that something is amiss, and that people are realizing how such meetings undermine our fragile democracy.

I fear the future.

[Hubris Boy]

Jaguar, sorry but you're wrong on a few counts:

the cop was in basically 0 direct danger

The cops were outnumbered and surrounded by a violent mob. If that doesn't constitute danger, I don't know what does.

cops are taught how to shoot to disarm but not kill

No, they aren't. Cops are trained to shoot to kill, and to aim "center-of-mass". If a cop points a gun at you, he's not trying to wing you, or shoot the fire extinguisher out of your hand. That only happens in movies. If a cop points a gun at you, he's aiming at a spot in the middle of your chest and he's preparing to kill you, because he's exhausted all his other options and can't think of any other way to resolve the situation. That's why it's called "deadly force", and why it's used so rarely.

if he wanted to stop he throwing it surely he could have shot him in the chest/shoulder which would have made him drop it but is far less likely to kill him that between the eyes.

I have no idea what this means.

Also please, remember cops don't play fair, I was at the S11 rally in Melbourne last year. In some of the batten charges they just randomly hit people around the head with 3 foot long steel poles, often these people were just standing on the sidelines, some of the cops just went rabid and hit anything that wasn?t wearing blue, and the court cases which have recently been won here prove it.

All this proves is that there are some stupid cops in Melbourne. I don't know anything about this. Did they fire the cops in question? I hope so.

people are realizing how such meetings undermine our fragile democracy.

Petitio principii- "it begs the question". You make a statement based on a "fact" which has yet to be proven by argument. Are you suggesting that the G8 meeting is somehow anti-democratic? I would beg to differ with you there. With the exception of the Russians (and we only invite them because we don't want to hurt their feelings, and they like to feel they're still important), this is a meeting of the world's largest democracies. They're getting together to figure out ways to help the rest of the world enjoy the same democratic blessings and, incidentally, get rich along the way. Wheeee!

I fear the future.

I do, too. But for entirely different reasons.

[elSicomoro]

These demonstrations can indeed be peaceful. As an example, the IMF/World Bank in Washington, DC last spring.

DC Police saw what happened in Seattle during the WTO meetings. They had a bit of time to prepare. Arlington, VA Police were made US Marshals so that they could keep patrol over the bridges that run between the two cities--hence, giving the DC Police more bodies. In addition, everyone was on duty during that period. Damned near every police officer was on the streets. The police also caught a break (some may say unfair) by raiding the protestors staging area two days before the protest. (The reason--building code violations. It was sneaky, yes...but shrewd on their end.) In the end, a few hundred people got arrested, were let go on minor violations, a few got hurt, but nothing extreme happened.

I believe that as a whole, cops DO play fair. However, cops DO have a right to play tricks on us citizens in order to protect society as a whole.

If the cops in general felt they were in imminent danger, then they did have the right to shoot and kill Giuliani.

As far as the G8 (or rather, the G7 plus Russia), it was a gathering of the 8 most powerful nations. As much as we may not agree with all their policies and decisions, they represent us a whole. Furthermore, the US is a republic, NOT a democracy...and this goes for most first-world nations. If we were all true democracies, then we would not be first-world nations...it would be sheer chaos. Also, the protestors will NEVER get anywhere, for the simple fact that there are too many factions. This isn't like the Civil Rights Era or anything. I'd be curious to know how much money Bono and Bob Geldof have given to relieve third-world debt.

[jaguar]

They were part of a convoy of armoured 4wds - the fire extinguisher would have bounced off - at worst left a dent. I've got pictures of the car and the shooting here. If you think you in enough danger to kill someone for throwing somthing in you - while inside what amounts to an armoured personel carrier i question your judgement.

Stupid cops in melbourne? they are using exactly the same tactics over there and in many other similar rallies- blind batten charging, its dangerous and innefective - a good excuse to bash people up. I userstand where the cops are coming from - and targeting cops is not smart but thats no excuse to kill people. There are few situation where i think cops shoudl even have the right to carry firearms. Airtasers, capsician sprays, cattle prods, and things like netguns are more than sufficient for 99% of situations. Firearms shoudl only be used by a teams like ARVs and SWAT who have the full training and dicipline to use them effectively. Its not easy to do, it requires years of specialisted training.

I've done full weapons training (mostly subbys(Uzi, MP5, MP5K, MP5SD) and rifles(AK47, M16) but some pistol) for a couple of reasons (Work in cambodia where you carry arms for security reasons and for paintball licnece) , we were trained to aim for 3 targets depending on the goal, head/center chest for kill or shoulder to disarm. Secnet training i did was partly based on H&K training - the most elite training organisation in weapons use and handeling in the world.

The cop shot him in the head - twice, he clearly wanted to kill him - then BACKED OVER THE BODY. He has been charged with murder for a good reason, this cannot come under self defense.

G8 meeting as slightly different in nature to what i do not like which are WTO meetings - which basicly are closed doors meeting over the richest and the most powerful - without public concent or scrunity our democraticly leaders cut deals with the multibillion dollars dominaters of commerce. This is what is defined as an olicarchy (yes i can't type and yes my spelling, particualry latin, sucks) where power in concentrated amoungst a few.

Well i don't think 100000 peopel are out there for a picnic - they have each some to the same conclusion that somthing is seirously wrong there - and are motivated enough to do somthing about it.

There are many reasons ot fear the future - 3 generation of tech are gonna turn out some pretty scary stuff (although i wouldn't mind some neural implants amoungst other things) and i'm not looking forward to what will probably left of our enviroment but total domination by corperate interests i see as the biggest threat. Blend 1984, some elements of Brave new world and and William Gibson and bingo - welcome to reality 2020.

ANd its hard to spell/type correctly when your tying in free periods in a busy library surroudned by peopel at school.

[Hubris Boy]

I've done full weapons training (mostly subbys(Uzi, MP5, MP5K, MP5SD) and rifles(AK47, M16) but some pistol) for a couple of reasons (Work in cambodia where you carry arms for security reasons and for paintball licnece) , we were trained to aim for 3 targets depending on the goal, head/center chest for kill or shoulder to disarm. Secnet training i did was partly based on H&K training - the most elite training organisation in weapons use and handeling in the world.

Goodness... you're extraordinarily well-trained. Tell me, which companies hire 16 year-old Australians for armed security work in Cambodia? And, which companies train 16 year-old Australians to handle machine guns?

FYI- the M-16 fires a high-velocity 5.56mm round, the AK-47 fires an enormous 7.62mm round, and the Uzi and the H-K MP5 variants you mentioned all fire the venerable 9mm Parabellum. (Personally, I think the 9mm is a little underpowered, but a lot of people still like it. The +p and +p+ loads are nice, if you can get them. But I digress...) Getting hit in the shoulder with any of these rounds would likely be fatal. Kinetic shock alone (forget about the bullet itself) would cause massive trauma to the brachial plexus and possibly even the pericardium; and, if the brachial artery or basilic vein gets torn, you'll probably bleed to death before they can get you to the hospital.

Anybody who ever taught you that shooting somebody in the shoulder isn't likely to be fatal is either a liar or a fool.

When you go off to university, be sure to take a class in human anatomy, even if it's not a requirement for your major. It's a fascinating topic!

Hope this helps!

[jaguar]

Cops don't have heavy weapons, I think the cop was using a glock18, although I’m not sure.

What company?
If you hadn’t noticed Cambodia isn’t a nice place. My dad is a digital electronics engineer, I know the systems he works with well, security systems. Most of my work was soldering up circuit board and power supplies and installing them in various locations. Systems in Cambodia are slightly more complex than the average, and working in Cambodia is not safe. Training was provided my ex-military Cambodia and a mercenary firm that was US based, although I cannot remember the name.

Congratulations for knowing what type of rounds the various guns fire, a brilliant achievement in patronization and attempting to be condescending as possible. AK47 I used only once - I disjointed my shoulder with the recoil (although it is by far the most used weapon, both Quick Response Teams which the security company kept mostly used them), last work I did although I’m going back at the end of the year. MP5/K I did full training with, apart from vehicle deployment. M16 and Uzi was more target practice, if I was working n the field I carried an MP5. Work is mostly done inside walled complexes, home of the rich and powerful or business HQs. The most vulnerable time is when work is being done on security systems, some include turret guns. While there was never an incident there have been, and will be again. Gangs are well armed, up to an including RPGs, mortars, light support weapons etc... You don't fuck with these people, you shoot and run. If you doubt what I’m saying take a look at a national geographic article form last year about Angkor Wat, they were forced by the local authorities to take a full armored convoy. Sure a big part of doing the training was the fun bit of trying out guns etc, but it was pretty good, and worth doing. Just curious, have you done any military training yourself or somthing or did you jsut grab a couple of facts of a webpage hoping to intimidate me?

I never implied that you would live if shot with a full size assault rifle you would live, but last I check cops don't usually carry M16s and the like(although I saw some footage that looked like a riot cop firing some kind of subby into the air...). This guy was shot with a pistol, and ambulances were around - its the middle of a riot, they are on standby. Sure I'm no qualified doctor by a long shot but I’d say you'd have a better chance than in the head but you certainly would not be throwing anything around for a while.
And on a relative measure, I think you'll agree the chances of survival are higher.

I agree syc, what most of there people want - true socialism is never going to happen. It is a matter of balance and alot of people think that’s well out of wack at the moment and I’m one of them. I don't want revolution, I want evolution. The currant protest movement is a huge myriad of groups banded together, many of them overlap, no it’s not really going to do much but it gets attention, that’s a start. I'm not some kind of far left antiglobalisation nut. I run a small business importing hardware for crying out loud, globalization is good, it’s a matter of its implementation and reaping the most for the majority.

If this cop had been on the ground and the guy came at him with this, sure, shoot, but he was in an armored vehicle, that’s not defensible, and that’s why he’s up for murder.

[alphageek31337]

Years of USENET may have left me over-sensitive, but it sounds like it's time to break out the asbestos g-string (y'know, protect what's important without over-exposing yourself to the asbestos).

[jaguar]

*sighs*
very close to.

[elSicomoro]

I looked at pics from the NY Times and also read various stories on the incident from several agencies.

From what I've gathered on my own, it IS possible that the cops overreacted. I didn't see pics of the kid getting run over, but saw a pic of the moment the kid was getting ready to throw the extinguisher. Bottom line: Civil disobedience. Gandhi did it. MLK did it. Cesar Chavez did it. The majority of the protestors in Seattle, DC, and Genoa did it. But you do NOT throw fire extinguishers at police officers...period. Whether the cop was in an armored vehicle or not (and from what I could see, there WAS a window open on the vehicle).

This <A HREF=http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/international/21ITAL.html?searchpv=day02">link</A> will expire later in the week...and you must be registered with the New York Times to read it (it's free). But these are probably the best couple of pics I've seen (other than the one displayed here).


And for the record, it is a POSSIBLE manslaughter...see <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/23/international/europe/23ITAL.html">this story</a>.

Socialism and communism are wonderful ideas on paper...and that's really about it. Sure, we all want SOME sort of change...but in a capitalist society such as ours, it will come slowly. After all, it took over 300 years to begin dismantling the injustice against slaves and their African-American and Hispanic offspring.

[tw]

Originally posted by sycamore
Bottom line: Civil disobedience. Gandhi did it. MLK did it. Cesar Chavez did it. The majority of the protestors in Seattle, DC, and Genoa did it. But you do NOT throw fire extinguishers at police officers...period. Whether the cop was in an armored vehicle or not (and from what I could see, there WAS a window open on the vehicle).

Great leaders of civil unrest did so "non-violently". They also represented a cause. There is no cause in these street riots. Based upon interviews, most demonstrator rioters don't even have a clue about they they are rioting over. They don't even know the facts. They have been educated in the knowledge of Action News.

No wonder these adult children are violent. They see car crashes nightyly and call that news. Sorry. I have no sympathy for a person that got what he deserved. The only way you can prove to me otherwise is to demonstrate brainwashing. Of course that is a viable possibility.

[jaguar]

Most of the violent anarchists are from radical socialist groups. Not a very smart cause, but a cause. And the fact that implying that by this the forfit thier right to life..

Alot of different people and groups (non violent protesters) ar earngy about alot of things, msot of htem are intertwined, until they can prove that and organise a propper front nad ogranisation they are wasting their time sadly.