Student Religious Group That Discriminates Should Not Get Public Funding

To this day I am so completely confused as to why the religious in the US refuse to comply with separation of Church and State.
It is in their best interest... they need to see that.
If breached, that influence will go both ways... and not in the Church's best interest in the long run.
Regardless of that... this nation was never a religious one, was never meant to be and should never be.
We should honor the First, and keep all religions separate from all State functions and funding.
It needs to be off of our money, out of our schools in all forms (I don't mind unfunded student groups after hours), out of the courts in all ways, just OUT.

Student Religious Group That Discriminates Should Not Get Public Funding, Americans United Tells Appellate Court
Monday, January 22, 2007

Church-State Watchdog Group Says Hastings Law School Is Right To Refuse Aid To Christian Legal Society Chapter That Rejects Non-Christians, Gays

A public university is right to deny funding to a student group that discriminates on the basis of religion and sexual orientation, according to Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In a friend-of-the-court brief filed with the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Americans United argues that Hastings College of Law, a part of the University of California system, does not have to officially recognize and support a student organization that excludes law students who do not subscribe to a certain type of Christianity or are gay.

“Public universities are under no obligation to subsidize student religious organizations that discriminate,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “In fact, state schools have a duty to ensure that they do not aid the mission of religious organizations. Hastings Law School is on the right legal track, and the federal courts ought to say so.”

A student chapter of the Christian Legal Society (CLS) at Hastings has brought a lawsuit demanding an exemption from the law school’s Nondiscrimination Policy. The policy states that all student groups that seek official recognition and direct financial support must not deny membership based on a student’s race, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

The CLS affiliate argues that its religious liberty is being violated by the requirement.

Last year, a federal district court disagreed with the Christian student group’s arguments and upheld the school’s right to enforce its nondiscrimination policy. The CLS has asked the 9th Circuit to reverse the lower court’s ruling.

In its 30-page brief in Christian Legal Society Chapter v. Mary Kay Kane, Americans United argues that the university’s anti-discrimination policy applies equally to all student groups and that the CLS has no constitutional right to demand special treatment by the university.

Citing federal court precedent, Americans United’s brief notes that state institutions must not treat religious organizations more favorably than non-religious ones.

The brief, filed Jan. 19, further argues that exempting the Christian student legal group from the anti-discrimination policy would amount to providing preferential treatment to the religious group because “unlike all other campus groups, religious or secular,” the CLS would be able to discriminate and still receive state funds.

The brief was authored by attorneys Archis A. Parasharami, Lauren R. Randell and Evan M. Tager of the Washington, D.C., office of the global law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP, under the supervision of Americans United attorneys Ayesha N. Khan, Richard B. Katskee and Alex J. Luchenitser.

According to AU, the university’s anti-discrimination policy does not violate the religious liberty rights of the Christian student group. The CLS, under the school’s policy, can still advocate its religious beliefs and use campus facilities to meet and spread those beliefs, but without receiving tax dollars.

“The law school’s policy against discriminatory practices does not harm the religious expression rights of the CLS,” said Luchenitser, Americans United’s senior litigation counsel. “The school’s policy treats all student groups the same. If the Christian Legal Society chapter wishes to receive school financing, it must play by the same rules that other state groups do.”

Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.

[piercehawkeye45]

Agreed. They have every right to discriminate but they shouldn't recieve any funding for it.

[OnyxCougar]

A few years back I posted a thread proving that although the founding fathers of teh US were not necessarily Christian, they were at the least, diests that belived in a Creator god and a power and authority that came from that god.

The phrase regarding the separation between church and state is not in any legal documentation by the founding fathers, only in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, reassuring them that the US will never force it's citizens to comply with a governmental (state) religion, due to the constitutional freedoms afforded to them.

That being said, (you can search for and review that trhead at your leisure, I won't repost here, way too long) I think that if this religous group is discriminating against homosexuals or people of other religious affiliations, they shouldn't receive school funding.

However, all "men's" organizations (fraternities) or "women's" organizations (sororities) therefore shouldn't receive school funding, either. Nor should "black clubs" (NAACP) or "asian clubs" or any other ethnic club that excludes people of other races.


Fair is fair.

[deadbeater]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

However, all "men's" organizations (fraternities) or "women's" organizations (sororities) therefore shouldn't receive school funding, either. Nor should "black clubs" (NAACP) or "asian clubs" or any other ethnic club that excludes people of other races.


Fair is fair.

The NAACP does not disciminate against Whites being members.

Originally Posted by deadbeater

The NAACP does not disciminate against Whites being members.

Gee... being a white male (a minority and a color) I wonder how much jack I can get from them for a scholarship? Like the one I was passed over because of being white for someone with less of a GPA and no extracarricular...

As always:

Amendment 1 (1st for a reason)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; -Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" -Thomas Jefferson

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
John Adams April 27,1797

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries"
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison fourth president and father of the Constitution

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison

The words "one nation under God" were not added to the Pledge of allegiance until 1953

None of the 85 Federalist Papers written in support of the Constitution reference God, the Bible, religion or Christianity.

The words "in God we trust were not consistently added to all money until the 1950s after the McCarthy Era

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally, was just as vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.
The views of Madison and Jefferson prevailed in the Virginia Assembly

Jesus even said it:
Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791
“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by deadbeater

The NAACP does not disciminate against Whites being members.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Gee... being a white male (a minority and a color) I wonder how much jack I can get from them for a scholarship? Like the one I was passed over because of being white for someone with less of a GPA and no extracarricular...

You applied to the NAACP for a scholarship?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by deadbeater

The NAACP does not disciminate against Whites being members.

Course not. White liberal guilt is responsible for most of their funding.

Anybody here seen a Black Student Union with White Members?

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by wolf

Anybody here seen a Black Student Union with White Members?

Nope. Where is my White Student Union? Where is my Irish History Month? Where is my Dayton Alliance of White Business Owners? Hey, if you wanna be equal and all, drop the Special Pleading shite and join the rest of us nobodies.

[monster]

Originally Posted by wolf

Anybody here seen a Black Student Union with White Members?

Ours does. Of course it's only K-8, they are young yet...

[Ibby]

Amen, OC.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

snip~ Regardless of that... this nation was never a religious one, was never meant to be and should never be.~snip

Not true, this has always been a religious Nation. It was settled and populated by religious people. The settlements were mostly single religious groups with the non-religious individuals, going through the motions or keeping a low profile and certainly not voicing objections.

The "Founding Fathers" gathered in Philadelphia to form a more perfect union, didn't want to get into the problems of Europe with having a State Church ....an official religion. Plus most of the people that had settled in the previous 150 years were pretty set in their ways. They didn't want, and would not support, any government that was going to mess with their beliefs.

That said, they were religious people. They elected religious people. They past laws to support and protect their religion and way of life. Religion was part of their everyday life and incorporated into public functions. They were also mostly Christian but tolerant, at least in public, of others...as long as they didn't try to run for office or seek power in any way.

There was friction, especially during the influx of Catholics just before the Civil War. But everybody got along pretty well until the New Deal started pushing federal money into every corner of our lives and seeking input in return.

It wasn't until the 60s that this became much of an issue. "Under God" was just added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s. The idea that this was not a religious country from the git-go is a myth.

btw, I agree that this group should not be funded. I also agree with OC about all those groups that are excluding people shouldn't be funded either.

[yesman065]

I'm in, it makes sense to me also.

[piercehawkeye45]

I disagree with not funding frats and sororities. They have a house for both males and females so it isn't discriminating. It is just like saying we shouldn't fund boy's basketball because girls can't join even though there is a girl's basketball team.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I disagree with not funding frats and sororities. They have a house for both males and females so it isn't discriminating. It is just like saying we shouldn't fund boy's basketball because girls can't join even though there is a girl's basketball team.

If a fraternity states that women cannot be in their group, it's discrimination, regardless of what else is available.

Using your logic, this religious club should be funded as long as there is a Jewish club for Jews.

If a certain "club" discriminates, PERIOD, it shouldn't be publicly funded.

The NAACP does not disciminate against Whites being members.

I was using that as an example, I don't know anything about the NAACP, but I think my point made it across. Apologies to the NAACP.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If a fraternity states that women cannot be in their group, it's discrimination, regardless of what else is available.

Using your logic, this religious club should be funded as long as there is a Jewish club for Jews.

If a certain "club" discriminates, PERIOD, it shouldn't be publicly funded

Then all the college dorms shouldn't be funded because I can't room in a girl's wing. All schools should be funded because I can't go into a girl's bathroom. All guy's basketball should be cut of funding because girl's can't play even though they have their own league. Don't mix sex with religion or race because they have no comparasion.