The Draft

[DanaC]

Sonofabitch its nearly 3am....How the hell did that happen....again? ...I have spent far too much time this week discussing Middle East politics and not nearly enough studying/sleeping/working/playing with my dog.... I mean it. He's gone glassy eyed.

[Griff]

Originally posted by sycamore
Let's see if The Evasive Wifebuyer will reveal just how the land became Israel's...this should be good.

[radar]You don't get it do you! The Palestinians didn't have a government, therefor they had no rights! What are you dense? They were just squatting there. They weren't actually using or improving the land. They were just squatting, they were too lazy to go down to the courthouse and file a claim. They should be happy they were evicted by a productive people. I don't even know why I try to reason with you Native American types, what would you know about this sort of thing?[/radar]

Just in case he doesn't get back to you on this.

[elSicomoro]

I suspect it will be 100% bovine fecal matter, but I need some entertainment.

[jaguar]

But since we're both in the same country

There is an ocean between us, in more ways than one. On that point though, the international community is not acceptiong of the concept of invading other nations and claiming spoils, in fact, it's a little bit frowned on these days. Pity you're a tad out of touch with the modern international arena.

They'd just have to develop their own land, open their own businesses, and leave their Israeli neighbors alone. Israel isn't stopping the Palestinians from living peacefully on their own land and thriving, only the Palestinians are preventing peace and choosing to live in abject poverty.

Well, one thing is true, many are trying to. One the other hand continual road closures and blocked routes have caused many to loose jobs, particularly those that held jobs in Israel, Israel also has a long hisstory of bulldozing olive groves, and more recently, seperating them from the farmers with their shiny new wall. Their own land is split into thousands of tiny slivers of land, controlled by Israeli checkpoints, making it close to impossible for them to move around, makes a functioning economy a tad tough.

throw your broken body into the gutter where it belongs.

Notice how some people just do the hard work for you. Coz hey, all those people with different political views should DIE.

[wolf]

Originally posted by sycamore
Let's see if The Evasive Wifebuyer will reveal just how the land became Israel's...this should be good.

hmmmm....

God gave it to them.

Oh wait, EW doesn't accept the existence of any gods so ...

They had a natural right to the land.

[DanaC]

Israel also has a long hisstory of bulldozing olive groves,

Indeed. They also bulldozed Orange groves in Jaffa which were over a thousand years old. The genetics are lost to the world forever. Why? Ummm because militants might be hiding there.....Well thats alright then.....Israel doesnt feel any imperative to find any other way of bringing to "justice" those they consider beyond the pale....In most civilised countries some attempt is made to effect an arrest.

If that arrest is not possible without causing loss of life to the surrounding populace...well hell the arrest *isnt* made and another solution is found which doesnt put civilians at risk and which doesnt destroy ancient landmarks.

I am reminded of the Taliban and their destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan. The rationale behind the destruction is different but the scant regard for anything other than their own ideology and the destruction that causes is very similar.

[onetrack]

Originally posted by wolf


hmmmm....

God gave it to them.

Oh wait, EW doesn't accept the existence of any gods so ...

They had a natural right to the land.

The Israelis not only have a declared God-given natural right to the Land of Palestine .. they ... uh-h-h .... used the same tactics on the British, as the Palestinians use on the Israelis, to acquire ownership ..

Hmmm .. the oft-repeated quote .. ''Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it" .. could also be modified to ..
''Those who found their country on terrorism are doomed to live with terrorism .. ''

Of course, they DID phone through a warning before the bomb went off .. where have I seen that before? .. oh! ..... of course ... the IRA ...

[onetrack]

Ooops .. sorry .. I forgot to add the King David Hotel bombing, link, to the above post ..

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

[Radar]

Whichever way you look at it the Israelis have killed more Palestinian civilians than they have lost on their own side.

Don't fault the Israelis for having more firepower and DO fault the Palestinian terrorists who put those people into danger in the first place by hiding among them.

The suffering of the Palestinian people however, is so extreme as to make most of the world look on in horror at what is being done.

Any suffering experienced by the Palestinians was due to their own actions.

You only have to watch a little footage of Israeli soldiers as they pace up and down exuding menace to quell the growing storm to see this is a force policing a different people to their own.

Oh, you mean the soldiers who are DEFENDING their country against terrorists? Those soldiers?

You only have to read the reports coming in from Human Rights watch, amnesty international and other NGO's to see that the Palestinians are being grievously provoked.

Utter bullshit. There is no justification or provocation for strapping a bomb to yourself like a coward and blowing up women and children.

Whatis the Palestinian child to think when they have seen their brothers dragged from their beds at night?

They're to think "Hey I guess I better not fuck with the Israelis or I'll get dragged from my bed at night."

What about the children who were present when one of their schoolmates was shot , quite coldly by an Israeli sniper? Or the Child who was targetted in his yard?

That's utter bullshit. The child was not "targeted" and you know it. Unlike the Palestinians, Israel doesn't "target" children. A child may have been it, but wasn't "targeted".

Radar screaming about Israel's right to kick the shit out of the Palestinians if they want on account of the Militants using them as shields does not in anyway lessen my view that the Palestinian people are a conquered race who are being humiliated and tormented daily by their conqueror. So..what are they to do about it?

The answer is simple. STOP KILLING JEWS!!!! If they did that, hey would live in peace. You say they're "conquered" but leave out the fact that it is they who initiate the violence, it is they who started this whole thing, and it is they who cry when justice is dished out.

Damn suicides.

Yes Monkey, that was a suicide too. A suicide in protest is every bit as much a suicide by blowing yourself up.

As to the families of the suicide bombers....given that this hasnt actually acted as a deterrent ( unless I am very much mistaken) why make them suffer more than they already have?

You are very mistaken on many issues, and if used often enough it IS a deterrent. And they should suffer more and more until they realize that their suffering won't stop until they stop attacking Jews.

And if Radar comes back with the lack of regard that the militants showed, the difference is one is a group of militant extremists at the margins of the fight for freedom and national identity andthe other is a STATE army.

Don't even try to pass that crock of shit off. The Palestinians aren't "fighting for freedom", they're murdering Jews without cause. They are no different than a gang who want to kill people in a neighborhood for protection money. Israel on the other hand is fighting for freedom from being attacked by their terrorist neighbors.

Let's see if The Evasive Wifebuyer will reveal just how the land became Israel's...this should be good.

Yes, whichever one of you is evasive and a wife buyer should answer that asinine question. I might answer it if it were directed at me, but apparently the asshole who wrote it was directing it toward someone who is evasive, and buys a wife unlike me who is consistently straightforward, honest, direct, reasonable, and logical.

They weren't actually using or improving the land. They were just squatting, they were too lazy to go down to the courthouse and file a claim.

Don't put words on my mouth shit head. Back to the example of owning land that I don't happen to live on right now. If I have land in Montana that I never visit, but I currently live in California and you decide squat on my land and build a home on it. And you're there for 10 years before I finally decide to build on my land and I find you there, you hold no ownership in the land. You are guilty of trespass and I'd be perfect justified in kicking your scrawny ass off my land and bulldozing the house even with your belongings still inside. And if the Palestinian people wanted to have actual ownership of the land they could have purchased it and filed for deeds from the actual owners (Great Britain or before that Turkey, or before that Caesar in Rome, or before that the Pharaoh of Egypt) but they didn't.

You keep mentioning how Israel closes roads or bulldozes orchards or olive groves but conveniently leave out the fact that they were driven to do this through the terrorist acts of the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are upset at their treatment they shouldn't get angry at Israel, they should get angry at their fellow Palestinians who are carrying out these unprovoked terrorist attacks. Hopefully the Palestinians will get it through their thick skulls that fucking with Israel means you are dragged from your bed in the middle of the night, or killed, or lose your home, or lose your business, etc. Maybe when they hear about or see a Palestinian who is going to carry out an attack against Israel, they'll tell report them to avoid going through such pain and trouble.

Let's see we've got armed terrorists hiding among old trees. Do we go in and lose human life (more valuable than any tree on earth) or bulldoze the trees? Hmmmm I'm going for saving human life instead of trees.

All suffering on the part of the Palestinians is a direct result of their own actions. Until they stop attacking Israel entirely, things can and should get worse. If there were only one Palestinian left alive because all the others attacked Israel and that last one attacked Israel, he too should be eliminated.

[jaguar]

You keep mentioning how Israel closes roads or bulldozes orchards or olive groves but conveniently leave out the fact that they were driven to do this through the terrorist acts of the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are upset at their treatment they shouldn't get angry at Israel, they should get angry at their fellow Palestinians who are carrying out these unprovoked terrorist attacks.

Hey! I think we've found the guy that runs SPEWS!!!!
(any sysadmins will know what I'm talking about).

Bah, I can't be bothered. If you think punishing populations (which you've stated, quite clearly is the correct answer in your funny little world) I think I'll let my sig say it all.

Fight fire with fire and the world will burn

[elSicomoro]

Eh, the UK had only a mandate to administer Palestine...they did not own it. And the State of Israel makes it pretty clear: The British Mandate authorities granted the Jewish and Arab communities the right to run their own internal affairs.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
Yes, whichever one of you is evasive and a wife buyer should answer that asinine question. I might answer it if it were directed at me, but apparently the asshole who wrote it was directing it toward someone who is evasive, and buys a wife unlike me who is consistently straightforward, honest, direct, reasonable, and logical.

Actually, Radar, it was directed at you...though I can't prove you bought your wife, I can easily prove your evasiveness...care to play the game?

[Radar]

I knew who you were directing it at asshole. It was a racist remark (suggesting any woman from Vietnam who marries an American man is "purchased" woman is very racist) by an ignorant and poorly educated shithead trying to cast aspersions and make baseless and false claims about my wife and I.

And I'm anything but evasive. I've answered all direct questions asked of me with direct and straightforward answers when those who ask them are willing to offer the same courtesy.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
I knew who you were directing it at asshole.

I love it when you call me dirty names...it gets me sooooo hot and bothered!

It was a racist remark (suggesting any woman from Vietnam who marries an American man is "purchased" woman is very racist)

Of course, this is only your opinion, much like most of your rantings...but why do you think my remark was racist?

And I'm anything but evasive. I've answered all direct questions asked of me with direct and straightforward answers when those who ask them are willing to offer the same courtesy.

Bullshit.

You're a liar.

[DanaC]

Well. It strikes me that what we have here is an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. There is clearly no argument any of us can make which would change the opinions of the Cellar's pro Israel lobby ....and I think it equally unlikely that those of us who hold a different position will find ourselves swayed by the arguments heard here.

We have whiled away a pleasant week apportioning blame...But the lines are still drawn much as they were at the start. Of all the subjects that float across the boards this one in particular seems to spark a fairly heated response.

So. I propose we step away from the blame game for a moment. I will never see the Palestinians as the agressor and Radar ( for instance) will never see Israel as the agressor. Forget for a moment then, who started the fight;We will never reach parity on that issue....Instead, what do we see as the way forward? If neither side can risk letting down their guard how do they come to terms?

Without a solution another generation of young Israelis will grow up with violence exploding around them and another generation of young Palestinians will grow up with dreams of martyrdom. This surely cannot be tolerable for either side for much longer...Without a solution the situation could conceivably get even worse.

There are simply too many people dying in the Middle East, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

In what way can the world help end this death embrace in which Israel and Palestine are locked ?