I'm Moving to CANADA

[Undertoad]

I'm glad we have clarified the semantics from "his faith" down to "everyone except Wiccans in the military".

Because I believe this election was lost by over-reaching, self-indulgent attacks causing the base to react in kind.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm glad we have clarified the semantics from "his faith" down to "everyone except Wiccans in the military".

I believe that the two are inextricably linked. I don't believe that he is capable of seperating his decision making skills from his revelatory dependency.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Because I believe this election was lost by over-reaching, self-indulgent attacks causing the base to react in kind.

I won't disagree with that.

[Undertoad]

Well, be part of the solution. W just noted in his press conference that all Americans of any faith or of no faith are equally American.

If you're scared, get a dog.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Well, be part of the solution. W just noted in his press conference that all Americans of any faith or of no faith are equally American.

I don't have TV, sorry. Is there a webcast?

And I am part of the solution. I just haven't had the opportunity to gripe about Kerry yet.

I'm an equal opportunity pessimist.

Edit:

I was able to generate a link to the video of the speech, but I can't get it to save from the link.

Here

[Undertoad]

I was waiting for a transcript

Relevant section:

QUESTION: Mr. President, your victory at the polls came about in part because of strong support from people of faith, in particular Christian evangelicals and Pentecostals and others. And Senator Kerry drew some of his strongest support from those who do not attend religious services.

What do you make of this religious divide, it seems, becoming a political divide in this country? And what do you say to those who are concerned about the role of a faith they do not share in public life and in your policies?

BUSH: Yes. My answer to people is, I will be your president regardless of your faith, and I don't expect you to agree with me, necessarily, on religion. As a matter of fact, no president should ever try to impose religion on our society.

The great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship. And if they choose not to worship, they're just as patriotic as your neighbor. That is an essential part of why we are a great nation.

And I am glad people of faith voted in this election. I am glad -- I appreciate all people who voted.

And I don't think you ought to read anything into the politics, the moment, about whether or not this nation will become a divided nation over religion. I think the great thing that unites us is the fact you can worship freely if you choose, and if you -- you don't have to worship. And if you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, you're equally American.

That is such a wonderful aspect of our society. And it is strong today and it'll be strong tomorrow.

When they do right, you must notice them doing it.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I was waiting for a transcript

Relevant section:


When they do right, you must notice them doing it.

Well, he has spoken well. Let's see if he delivers.

[hot_pastrami]

Plan to leave the U.S.? Here are the options. The work "bleak" springs to mind.

[Elspode]

Does no one besides me find it a bit arrogant that W presumes to draw the line at accepting religions that *he* finds acceptable? Or did I miss the part in the Constitution that said "freedom of religion as determined by the sitting President"? If Wicca, for example, is not specifically included in the Army Chaplin's handbook as an "official" religion, and therefore to be allowed, you can bet your sweet ass it will be *disallowed*, and therefore suppressed.

His dismissive attitude toward Wiccans (and any other path not specifically included in his rather small list, by association) is a fine illustration of his overall attitudes towards Americans. (Not a quote, but might as well be) "If you aren't a big enough or rich enough group, fuck off. You have no benefit for me or my ilk to gain from you."

Face it folks...you are entitled to as much equality and as many rights as you can afford to pay for, and not a bit more. If you have the bad judgement to follow an obscure religious path, or the bad fortune to be impoverished, old, sick or handicapped, you really shouldn't be in a healthy society anyway.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Elspode

If Wicca, for example, is not specifically included in the Army Chaplin's handbook as an "official" religion, and therefore to be allowed, you can bet your sweet ass it will be *disallowed*, and therefore suppressed.

i refuse to get into an argument about GWB's views on the issue, but to clarify - the military chaplaincy recognizes anyone's right to worship anything they want. the difficulty and some of the conflict stems from the military's inability to provide a chaplain for every faith group. a base only has a certain number of billets for chaplains and they are filled with, generally - 1 catholic priest and a couple protestants of various denominations, and if it is a very large base they may have a rabbi, and on rare occassions an imam.

LDS, orthodox, JW's, etc... are assisted in finding a like group in the local community or if there is a large enough group they will be provided a spot on base.

part of the reason that chaplains only fall into the basic categories of catholic, protestant, jewish, muslim, (and a few eastern orthodox) is primarily funding. if there are only X amount of slots allowed then it makes sense to fill them with an individual that can minister to the greatest number with a common faith. the second is educational/financial. chaplains are officers due to their educational background. the chaplaincy argued for years before admitting muslim chaplains because a catholic priest or Lutheran minister must spend years in formal education before entering the chaplaincy - to make sure that everyone was treated the same there was a requirement of an Master's of Divinity for any chaplain candidate - even for denominations that don't require one for ordination.

anyway - that is a little insight into the military chaplaincy and it's workings. i can assure you that a wiccan group (sorry i don't know the right terminology) has the right to worship even in the military. the only minority group that i am aware of having their requests rejected was a group of "satanists" (read drunken 19 y.o. jackasses that weren't practicing anything other than ruffling feathers) demanded that they be allowed to use the cross from the catholic service as part of their ceremony. the request was rejected with the caveat that if they could show proof of some organized group of likeminded individuals on base that a cross would be purchased specifically for their meetings in the next budget go 'round.

[Radar]

Sydney sounds like L.A. and Melbourne sounds like San Francisco or Seattle. For some reason I get the feeling that Melbourne might be cold and wet. I wonder why? hmmmmmm

[Elspode]

I must admit to a certain amount of paranoia when staring down the barrel of a growing religious Right. Their illogical, divisive rhetoric, now targeted mainly at gays and those seeking abortions, aforementioned rhetoric being based upon their religous tenets, gives me pause.

So...granted that no group with which I am affiliated has applied. Are you aware of any who have at all? And where are such details kept available?

Originally Posted by Elspode

I must admit to a certain amount of paranoia when staring down the barrel of a growing religious Right. Their illogical, divisive rhetoric, now targeted mainly at gays and those seeking abortions, aforementioned rhetoric being based upon their religous tenets, gives me pause.

Patrick, given my real world experiences with the religous right, I think that anyone should be concerned about them getting into a position of power or having influence with someone in a position of power (see my comments in the "Bushland" thread, if you haven't already).

[glatt]

Sydney is like a sunny San Francisco. It's a really fun and interesting city.

[Elspode]

Tom DeLay's statement pretty much sums up the source of my paranoia:

"We're going to be able to lead this country in the direction we've been dreaming of for years. . . . We're going to put God back into the public square."

I'm pretty sure that the God to which he refers is not going to be Cerrunos... :

[Radar]

San Francisco has a very good public transport system, but also most everything is within walking distance. You can walk to a market, or a cafe, etc. I've always wanted to live in a city where I wouldn't need to own a car. I'd still own one, but I wouldn't use it often.

San Francisco is also VERY expensive. Is Sydney like that?