Difficult Civil Rights Question

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I don't know what you really feel about this situation because you've not shared with us why you think the way you do,

Actuially I have. You're just not freaking listening. You've worked yourself into such a lather screaming "RACISM!" that you're willing to completely overlook the issues I've raised.

Originally Posted by Aliantha

...I would never agree that it's ok for a police officer to be an active officer and be a member of a hate group at the same time...

I think we've got that now. I don't expect you to agree. You're so wrapped up in special-interest identity politics that the principle I'm saying is at stake here escapes you completely.

Originally Posted by Aliantha

It takes something very special to be a cop, and someone who can believe that it's ok to feel superior to another whole race doesn't have that special thing that you need to have to be a cop.

That sounds noble and high-minded, but you can't just fire a cop for "not having a special thing", any more than he can arrest you and charge you with "looking suspicious".

Originally Posted by Aliantha

To add to that, the state has a responsibility to act in the best interests of all citizens. How can the state be acting in the best interests of all citizens if it allows some of its citizens to be put in a position where they are open to victimization?

That's "begging the question". Obviously the state can't "act in the best interests of all its citizens" all the time, because those inteterest are so frequently in conflict. That is why we have laws...to try to settle those conflicts equitably, and using objective standards that most people can understand.

[Stormieweather]

Here's the bottom line. You can't tell people what to think or believe in.

If laws are passed telling Joe Blow and Susy Sweet that they can't believe in X, then laws can be passed telling you that you can't believe in Y. Once you start regulating what beliefs are allowable, you deny people their humanity. You will lose the basis for all of our other freedoms which renders them useless. As distasteful as it may be, if Joe Blow wants to believe that certain races are sub-human, that IS his right...just as you have the right to believe they are equal.


From the international human rights law, the UDHR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...f_Human_Rights, article 18:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

The laws we have are anti-discrimination. These give all men the right to equal treatment, regardless of race, sex, religion, age, etc. Joe Blow can still 'think' certain citizens are sub-human but legally, he cannot treat them any differently than anyone else.

So this policeman does have the right to belong to a hate group, such as the KKK (because it is NOT an illegal ie: subversive group), but should he put those 'beliefs' into practice, he can get fired for discrimination.

Stormie

[MaggieL]

I suppose we can anticipate the "but some beliefs are reprehensible and incompatible with being a cop" response now.

[Stormieweather]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I suppose we can anticipate the "but some beliefs are reprehensible and incompatible with being a cop" response now.

Well they are (in my personal opinion) :p , but that's irrelevant. I firmly believe that racists can't help but behave in discriminatory ways. My hope is that this man fucks up quickly and is fired for discrimination.

[Trilby]

The thing is...we all have prejudicial thoughts. If you say you don't I simultaneously salute and disbelieve you.

I cannot help being who I am--and that is the product of my experiences (to a large part)--to continually whip me with a red cord and then ask me to worship and believe the red cord a benevolent god is probably not going to happen. At least not with ME. Statistically other people will fall to the belief and start kissing red cord ass for all it's worth.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

My hope is that this man fucks up quickly and is fired for discrimination.

After all this brouhaha, I bet the only discrimination you have to worry about from this guy is reverse discrimination. He's going to be under a ultramicroscope.

I don't disagree that true racism (as opposed to the bloody shirt that liberals invoke at the drop of a hat) is reprehensible. But that's not the point of this case.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

It takes something very special to be a cop, and someone who can believe that it's ok to feel superior to another whole race doesn't have that special thing that you need to have to be a cop.

In the United States only Black, Brown, Red, and sometimes Yellow people are allowed to feel superior about themselves.

What you fail to understand that for cops there are two colors. Blue and everybody else (perhaps three, Blue, Citizens, and Perps). That's where the lines are really drawn.

[Aliantha]

I understand a lot more about cops than you give me credit for wolf, but that's ok. You don't know me. Just try not to assume that's all.

[glatt]

I've always considered it easy to fire an employee who isn't performing as expected, but I forget that with cops and some other jobs, there are unions involved.

From today's washington post, we hear that the Metro train operator who fell asleep in 2004 and crashed his train into another one, injuring 20 people and causing $3.5 million in damage, was improperly fired. He is being rehired and given two years of back-pay.

Nobody is contesting the fact that he crashed the train, and was almost certainly asleep at the wheel. The reason he was fired improperly is that there's a certain schedule to follow when firing someone, and Metro messed up the sequence of dates for firing this guy.

At least they won't let him drive a train again. He'll be paid to stand around on the platform with a clipboard.

[Trilby]

[quote=glatt]... we hear that the Metro train operator who fell asleep in 2004 and crashed his train into another one, injuring 20 people and causing $3.5 million in damage, was improperly fired. He is being rehired and given two years of back-pay.[quote]

Ya gotta love unions.

I've dealt with two unions in my nursing life: an independant that represented steel workers and the IUE (international union of electricians). The IUE was surreal. I hated dealing with them.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by glatt

The reason he was fired improperly is that there's a certain schedule to follow when firing someone, and Metro messed up the sequence of dates for firing this guy.

And that's what happened in the case of the KKKop, too. The Staties claim that the guy was too dangerout to be a cop was completely undercut by the way they failed to meet their own defined schedule for the papwerwork moves necessary.

Perhaps the only thing more dangerous than a trainman asleep at the controls is a bureacrat asleep at the pen.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

...completely undercut by the way they failed to meet their own defined schedule for the papwerwork moves necessary.

We should call this idea by its proper name, due process, if we want support for it. If we want due process everyone else has to receive it as well. In union situations due process is often drawn out too far, but if we have rules we have to play by them. My brother tells a story about having to defend an incompetent teacher. It was fortunately just a ritual since everyone wanted the dope off the payroll. Now we need to start due process for the bureaucratic idiot that opened the door for a sleeping train driver to work for metro again.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by wolf

What you fail to understand that for cops there are two colors. Blue and everybody else (perhaps three, Blue, Citizens, and Perps). That's where the lines are really drawn.

I believe there is a fourth....people with pull, politically connected.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

After all this brouhaha, I bet the only discrimination you have to worry about from this guy is reverse discrimination. He's going to be under a ultramicroscope.

I don't disagree that true racism (as opposed to the bloody shirt that liberals invoke at the drop of a hat) is reprehensible. But that's not the point of this case.

You obviously know little of the Klan.

Again, they take an oath, the white race comes before all others in all things. That action alone says to me that his loyalty is in the wrong place.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Again, they take an oath, the white race comes before all others in all things. That action alone says to me that his loyalty is in the wrong place.

I'd say after all the attention he's gotten, if he visibly discriminates against somebody, his ass is gone..

I won't try to contradict your claimed authority on Klan internals, but this guy is under such incredible scrutiny that his loyalty is a non-issue; one step out of line and he's history. Happens I've had privileged access to state police disciplinary records (in another state), so that's a process *I* know something about.