Government Shut Down

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Adak

<snip>Is there ANYONE in the US, who believes that Obama,
Reid and Pelosi are willing to ACTUALLY NEGOTIATE, with the Republicans, to end the shutdown?

Adak, Did you even read Griff's posting above, and did you get the significance of it ?

I think most people are aware of the history of the GOP in dealing with Obama.
Their sudden "we demand that Obama negotiate with us" doesn't hold water.

Do you remember the story of the boy that cried "wolf" ?
It has much to do with the futility of attempts to demonize now.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

@Bruce:
Found out today that the WWII Memorial was paid for by private funds, AND is maintained by private funds, as well.

That's correct.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

By the way, the WW II Memorial... I'm a card carrying, Lifetime Charter Member. You know, one of the people that actually put up money to build those toilets.

There is NO expense to the Feds.

That is incorrect. The memorial is on federal land and operated by the National Park Service. Learn the difference between maintenance and operating expenses.

See this is one of those misleading half truths you keep coming up with, the bullshit oozing out of the religious rights bunkers. 'But, but', you say, 'I'm not one of them'. No, you're just one of the dupes they use to funnel this crap to the public. You hear it, and it matches what your preconceived notions, what you want to be the truth, so you accept and repeat it.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's correct.
That is incorrect. The memorial is on federal land and operated by the National Park Service. Learn the difference between maintenance and operating expenses.

See this is one of those misleading half truths you keep coming up with, the bullshit oozing out of the religious rights bunkers. 'But, but', you say, 'I'm not one of them'. No, you're just one of the dupes they use to funnel this crap to the public. You hear it, and it matches what your preconceived notions, what you want to be the truth, so you accept and repeat it.

The land it's on is Federal, so of course, it's operated by the National Park Service. The cost of operating the open air memorial, is such a pittance, it boggles the mind.

No. It was shut down and barricaded, expressly to hurt the WWII vets being flown in on the "Honor Flights", along with anyone whose visit to the Mall would have included it.

Similarly:

Thousands of Americans flock to Normandy each year to see the beaches and sharp cliff-faces where Allied soldiers made their first entry into Nazi-occupied France during a massive invasion on June 6, 1944, known as D-Day.

A year from the invasion's 70th anniversary, many came especially to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial, known for its pristine rows of white crosses, only to discover that its gates were chained shut.

"Due to the U.S. Government shut-down this site is closed to the public," read a sign on the gate. Dozens of roses had been strewn underneath by visitors.

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/touris...nce-8C11336423

Somehow, does this strike you as "Obama wants to negotiate an end to this shutdown", or does this strike you as "Obama is being a vindictive A-hole and like he has stated, won't negotiate ANYTHING, until he has everything he has asked for".

To me, it's the latter. This is something that he will regret later on, I'm sure. History will stick this to him, with Guerrilla Glue, as a reflection of the man's character.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Adak, Did you even read Griff's posting above, and did you get the significance of it ?

I think most people are aware of the history of the GOP in dealing with Obama.
Their sudden "we demand that Obama negotiate with us" doesn't hold water.

Do you remember the story of the boy that cried "wolf" ?
It has much to do with the futility of attempts to demonize now.

Yes, I read and commented on it. Obama and Harry Reid would be glad to negotiate with the Republicans,

If and ONLY if they first are given everything they want:

*full funding for Obamacare/ACA

*a debt ceiling high enough to last for the next several months.

That's not negotiating. You don't get everything you want, before you agree to negotiate.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Adak

Yes, I read and commented on it. Obama and Harry Reid would be glad to negotiate with the Republicans,

If and ONLY if they first are given everything they want:
*full funding for Obamacare/ACA
*a debt ceiling high enough to last for the next several months.
That's not negotiating. You don't get everything you want, before you agree to negotiate.

Your words, not theirs...

The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bill for Obamacare.
The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bills for all of the budget in the Debt Ceiling
The Senate passed and the President signed those Bills
The total of all these Bills passed by the GOP House exceeds the current debt ceiling.

Now the GOP House is attempting to renege on it's agreements.
Reid is opposed to rewarding their recurring bad behavior.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Your words, not theirs...

The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bill for Obamacare.
The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bills for all of the budget in the Debt Ceiling
The Senate passed and the President signed those Bills
The total of all these Bills passed by the GOP House exceeds the current debt ceiling.

Now the GOP House is attempting to renege on it's agreements.
Reid is opposed to rewarding their recurring bad behavior.

That's the problem with passing bills into law, when they haven't been studied, FIRST.

Now that Obamacare has started to roll out further, and a lot of exemptions have been made, and a lot of our biggest health care insurers have backed out of Obamacare, the people are not so happy with it. And that is what the House Republicans are reacting to. Remember, they had to vote on ACA before it's contents were even fully written up - "We'll vote on it first, and find out what's in it later", they were told.
So they did just that. And now the people they represent are not happy with what's in it.

House members, unlike the Senate, MUST respond quicker to the feedback they're getting from their district. They are up for election every 2 years, and it's coming up FAST. They have to respond, or they're out, as early as next year.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

If and ONLY if they first are given everything they want:

*full funding for Obamacare/ACA

*a debt ceiling high enough to last for the next several months.

That's not negotiating. You don't get everything you want, before you agree to negotiate.

Those aren't even demands, let alone "everything they want". Those are the status quo.

The Democrats haven't attached anything, let alone everything they want, to either bill.

In a theoretical "negotiation", what are the Republicans offering to give, in a give and take? All I'm seeing is take or take slightly less. Republicans are acting as if a functional government or paying our debts is a concession to Democrats.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Those aren't even demands, let alone "everything they want". Those are the status quo.

The Democrats haven't attached anything, let alone everything they want, to either bill.

In a theoretical "negotiation", what are the Republicans offering to give, in a give and take? All I'm seeing is take or take slightly less. Republicans are acting as if a functional government or paying our debts is a concession to Democrats.

If that is "the status quo", then why is the gov't shut down? Why is the shutdown being blamed on the Republicans?

Ah!

Because the gov't has branches, and the branch of gov't that controls the purse strings for ALL gov't spending (as a whole), is the House - not the President, and not the Senate.

So in your status quo, the President and Senate can spend only as much as has been agreed upon BY THE HOUSE.

And that's the problem with Obama and the Democrats. They have not been listening to what the House majority party has been saying.

Obama and the Democrats have gotten a LOT of bills passed and made into law, that they wanted. Now the Republicans want to get some things done from their own bucket list.

If Obama doesn't want to negotiate, then Obama better be ready to run the gov't with the debt ceiling of the status quo. Of course, Obama can't do that, because his budgets have been a dismal failure. Time to start listening perhaps.

[Adak]

Don't you just love the way politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth, at the same time?

Latest example is Obama: "raising the debt ceiling does not increase the amount we owe".

That's a glorious double talk beauty! It's true, yet we all know that raising the debt ceiling is made necessary BECAUSE WE'RE SPENDING MORE MONEY THAN WE TAKE IN!

That doesn't top Clinton's prize winner however:
"It depends what you definition of "is" is."

THAT is a double talk masterpiece, right there!

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

That's a glorious double talk beauty! It's true, yet we all know that raising the debt ceiling is made necessary BECAUSE WE'RE SPENDING MORE MONEY THAN WE TAKE IN!

A problem that was solved. And then extremist Republicans did what they love to do - spend money we do not have on wars without purpose. And did so while joyfully massacring 5000 American servicemen. So now we have maybe $2 or $3trillion dollars of debt that was financed by the Chinese - because some wacko president was so dumb - another word for extremist.

Those debts remain with or without the debt ceiling lifted. However if the debt ceiling is not lifted, then wacko Republicans get what they love. Those outstanding debts increase even more.

Bills created in early 2000s created these debts. Debts that now require the ceiling be lifted. If not paid, then all outstanding debts increase. You should have thought about those debts when wackos were using lies to created them back in 2003. I did - vigorously. Where were you when it was time to avert those debts? Too late now.

So you want to increase those debts by not raising a debt ceiling. Apparently wacko extremist rhetoric forgets to mention that part - to increase debts to make America fail.

[Undertoad]

The deficit is falling rapidly these days

[Lamplighter]

If that is "the status quo", then why is the gov't shut down?
Why is the shutdown being blamed on the Republicans?

The GOP has tried several faux drama issues to avoid responsibility for the government shutdown,
such as "just one child", "WWII vets barricaded from memorial", "1-yr ACA business deferral unfair", etc.

Now that the "debt ceiling" is another imminent issue,
Ron Paul Cantor and Eric Cantor are looking for a "grand strategy".
But Ted Cruz and the GOP are rebelling, saying "wait a minute, where is the "Repeal Obamacare" ?

Today, a former head of the Republican National Committee conceded...
The House GOP is "Leader-less, Rudder-less, and Clue-less"

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

The GOP has tried several faux drama issues to avoid responsibility for the government shutdown,
such as "just one child", "WWII vets barricaded from memorial", "1-yr ACA business deferral unfair", etc.

Now that the "debt ceiling" is another imminent issue,
Ron Paul Cantor and Eric Cantor are looking for a "grand strategy".
But Ted Cruz and the GOP are rebelling, saying "wait a minute, where is the "Repeal Obamacare" ?

Today, a former head of the Republican National Committee conceded...
The House GOP is "Leader-less, Rudder-less, and Clue-less"

Oh, there are a LOT of Republican RINO's who think the whole Conservative branch of the Republican party, should take a long walk, off a short pier! The Bush family (both) were not conservatives. All the RINO's tried their best to block Reagan when he was trying to win the nomination of the Party. They just KNEW he couldn't win, and didn't see the need for his policies!

You can hear the RINO's on the news shows every weekend, it seems. They're like a doughnut that looks good, but when you get to the inside of it, instead of a jelly filling, it's a load of horseshit.

Obamacare won't be repealed - nobody expected that. My guess is there will be some ACTUAL < SHOCKING! I know >, negotiating as we get near the debt ceiling limit. Obamacare itself will NOT be on the table, even. Probably the exemptions - stuff like that.

The good news today is that both the Treasury and Moody's have stated that the US will be be able to fully pay for it's debt, even if the debt ceiling is not raised.

THAT is very good news!

Programs may be curtailed, of course, as they run outside of their current budget amounts that are within the debt ceiling, but there will be no default on our obligations, to anyone.

Whew!

More to Obama's shame, the open air war memorials are closed again. What a commander in chief! Hard to really stomach a man who would deny us the right to honor our war dead.

I'm surprised that the media hasn't roasted Obama to the bone, over this - but he's their guy. If he were pictured bashing in the heads of baby seals with an axe, I'm sure the media would say he was a hero, saving the entire seal species, from over population.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The deficit is falling rapidly these days

The deficit can fall quite rapidly. That's not the same as the federal debt, of course, which is far larger, and harder to rein in.

As we get out of Afghanistan, and get more gas and oil developed (quite against Obama's wishes, but he takes credit for it anyway), the deficit will fall very rapidly.

The federal debt? No. That's like trying to herd cats.

[glatt]

The debt? Has the federal debt ever gone down (in modern times?)