For discussion: If you were a pedophile

[Cloud]

I am watching this with interest and thinking, although I am disinclined to debate. I really don't know what I believe, other than everyone is making good points here, and it's a difficult and complex question. I suppose I should do some reading on the subject, but it's not easy to read such things--there are certainly some horrific crimes perpetrated on innocent children.

I think only in the past 20 years or so has the subject even been addressed in our society. Most people, unless they are directly affected, chose not to think about pedophila, It's not a particularly pleasant topic. But how many of us are not affected, really? I think it's widespread; much more prevalent than we realized. Further, I think it's been a part of many societies over many thousands of years, even as cultural institutions, so it's stupid to ignore it or demonize it in an unthinking way. That means we have to deal with it. It is also a very emotional topic (as has been amply shown already in this thread); especially if you are directly affected.

I believe there are some very evil men who have this orientation, but I question an automatic condemnation of every person who has leanings this way to death as a heinous criminal. Once sat on a jury which had to sentence an 18 y.o. man who had fondled some young girls on a playground. It wasn't horrible, as such things go, but it was clear that this was a "first offender" situation. In the end, we chose to give a light sentence, as he was remorseful, agreed to therapy, and had family support. But it was a tough decision. ETA: He wasn't a criminal, he was a man struggling with a compulsion. And, no, the death penalty wasn't an option.

Additionally, through my work, I am involved, in defense of a church in priest/minor sexual abuse cases. There have been quite a few, and most churches are experiencing this. I certainly do not believe that these men were, or at least started out, evil, so that's why I made the remark about dissociating yourself. The only way I can think of for these religious to prey on children in direct contravention to everything they believe would be to completely turn off the mind. I'm no stranger to wrong thinking this way, but that to me, is mental illness.

BTW, in relation to the abuse lawsuits, there are some that are pretty sad; but also some that are pretty ridiculous, in which the plaintiffs blame every screw up in their lives, on a relatively minor incident, which is b.s. (It couldn't possibly be their abusive upbringing, their alcohol or drug abuse, depression, or other causes.)

So, anyway, um. . . thanks for commenting everyone. And I'll continue to be thinking about the topic. Probably forever. ETA. Sexual abuse has touched my life in other, more personal ways, so I have to find a way to deal with it as it comes. My wish is for none of you or yours to have serious emotional consequences from any of this stuff.

[TheMercenary]

Good post Cloud. Right on.

[Cloud]

Some good stuff here, I'm telling you folks.

but I edited it a bunch, so you might check! bad habit, I suppose.

[monster]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Having sexual feelings for children is one step away from acting them out.

In the same way that having guns is one step away from killing people?

[DanaC]

Ohhhh! She shoots, she scores! lol.

[monster]

...except, of course, you choose to buy the gun. which maybe puts you a step closer to acting it out.....

[DanaC]

Excellent point Monnie. Also, I don;t think that's a sexual orientation, unless you're Urbane :P

[Cloud]

Some of what Sean is saying makes a lot of sense to me; and some of it creeps me out. I appreciate the opportunity to hear his viewpoint, however (isn't the 'Net amazing?)

There are all sorts of human rights issues involved, including the rights of everyone affected, and human trafficking, which is a big problem still in the world. Even in trying to fix the problem, there are abuses. But the big issue for me, as in all sexual conduct, is consent. No sex that's not consensual!

Of course, it's all theoretical until someone touches your child.

[sean]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I don't think it is at all simple *smiles*. And attitudes towards sex (in every conceivable way, if you'll pardon the pun) are extrenely fluid. The emphasis on penetrative sex as the central act within heterosexual couples can be traced very firmly to the eighteenth century. Attitudes towards sex and sexuality have gone through profound changes accross many generations.

It's definitely complicated and it's fraught with paradox and contradiction. That's why I get so irritated by people's categorical pronouncements on what is and what isn't. I get particularly annoyed when people confront me with dictums I know to be false through my own experience.

For example, I spent most of my childhood (8 years) at boarding school. The one adult in my life at that time who showed me affection, love, care and attention was, I now know, attracted to young boys. He never engaged in any kind of inappropriate conduct with me, he just looked after me and offered me friendship. In hindsight, there was a mildly erotic aspect to our friendship and some physical affection, but it didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. Since that time, right up til the present day, I've had to listen to people vilify him and speculate about his sexuality, and to be honest, it distresses me. He was like a father for me.

Maybe I was lucky. Maybe he went further with other boys, but if he did, they've never publicised it. The question is, what is the difference between this beneficial relationship between a child an a paedophile and one which extends to physical intimacy? If all these things you say about 'power' and 'emotional maturity' are going to problematize eroticism between an adult and a child, wouldn't they apply regardless of any physical expression? This is certainly the view held by some.

And conversely, what about the situations where sexual conduct is only about pleasure, or curiosity or whatever else outside of an emotional component? What about sex that flies right past a child's radar becos he or she is too young to identify it as anything other than enjoyable touch? The widespread tradition of masturbating young children to induce sleep, found from Europe and Asia to South America, and only ever seen as problematic since the rise of middle class sexual mores in Europe in the 18th century, is a simple sex act that occurs outside of any context of power. It is a simple trade of pleasure seeking and pleasure giving that humans have made for millennia.

And as you suggest, the whole point of the prohibition of these fuzzy borders of sexual conduct has been to reinforce the compulsory, heterosexual, penetrative reproductive 'sex' that western instrumentalism mandates as the sole valid expression of erotic feeling (with recent special allowances made for suburban middle class monogamous gay couples...).

But would young teens be getting comatose at parties and having unprotected intercourse with random strangers if they'd been developed a sense of self respect and competency as sexual beings from childhood? I doubt it. Consider the lunacy around the dismissal of Joycelyn Elders. Doesn't that tell you anything?

I know that sex isn't all sunshine and light. The lot of girls especially has been very harsh in traditional cultures and protection of girls from sexual exploitation is a significant mark of progress in modern culture, but the day it is forbidden to critique social constraints on sexual expression is the day that progress will cease.

[DanaC]

And as you suggest, the whole point of the prohibition of these fuzzy borders of sexual conduct has been to reinforce the compulsory, heterosexual, penetrative reproductive 'sex' that western instrumentalism mandates as the sole valid expression of erotic feeling

That absolutely ties in with my reading from that period. It's amazing how many culturally acceptable forms of sexual expression did become stigmatised during this time. Not just in terms of who we select as partners, but also in terms of how and when we court them and what behaviour is acceptable in that courtship, and what was acceptable and desirable to do with them. A lot of stuff we would consider very sexual and have only recently started talking about again (last few decades) were entirely normal within the courtship rituals of the average labouring-class Briton prior to the big shift in sexual mores during the 18th century.

[sean]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Some of what Sean is saying makes a lot of sense to me; and some of it creeps me out. I appreciate the opportunity to hear his viewpoint, however (isn't the 'Net amazing?)

There are all sorts of human rights issues involved, including the rights of everyone affected, and human trafficking, which is a big problem still in the world. Even in trying to fix the problem, there are abuses. But the big issue for me, as in all sexual conduct, is consent. No sex that's not consensual!

Of course, it's all theoretical until someone touches your child.

Thanks for your comments Cloud. I need to retire and consider before I say much else. I'm an unapologetic sexual libertarian. I don't know what if anything this has to do with my orientation, but I do know that it gives people ammunition against me.

I had an idiosyncratic childhood that involved a number of atypical factors, including a medical condition that impacted on my sexual development. As a consequence, I was conscious of my sexual body from an early age. I also had to confront a variety of issues stemming from all this, and I think that has contributed toward my adult philosophy of resisting shaming practices. I'm not sure, but I suspect these kinds of experiences might be quite common among paedophiles.

I'd like to know what in particular creeps you out. I'm not challenging you. I know this stuff can do that. It might sound odd, but I put a lot of effort into not being creepy. For men attracted to women, its clear what's creepy and what's acceptable, but its harder when you're attracted to children. Any kind of interest can seem creepy, even when it's innocent.

I'm less interested in what adults think about me than I am in how children themselves interpret my conduct, but I am open to adult guidance. That's what I've been trying to say here, mostly.

Anyway, thanks.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by monster

In the same way that having guns is one step away from killing people?

Hmmmmm.... I have 27 guns and don't really think about killing anyone. Not that I couldn't if needed, but not something I think about.

Unlike a pedophile who wants to have sex with your children.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sean

He never engaged in any kind of inappropriate conduct with me, he just looked after me and offered me friendship. In hindsight, there was a mildly erotic aspect to our friendship and some physical affection, but it didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. Since that time, right up til the present day, I've had to listen to people vilify him and speculate about his sexuality, and to be honest, it distresses me. He was like a father for me.

Maybe I was lucky. Maybe he went further with other boys, but if he did, they've never publicised it. The question is, what is the difference between this beneficial relationship between a child an a paedophile and one which extends to physical intimacy? If all these things you say about 'power' and 'emotional maturity' are going to problematize eroticism between an adult and a child, wouldn't they apply regardless of any physical expression? This is certainly the view held by some.

I'm glad you had a positive experience with this sort of thing--though I'll be honest and say that I don't think it was actually that positive for you overall. There's no way we can know how you would have turned out if you'd never had this relationship with this adult, so the point is moot.

However, as a counter to your anecdote, I have my own experience with this type of situation. Except in my case, the adult in question made me massively uncomfortable every moment I had to be around him. The fact that he didn't touch me sexually didn't make his touch any less abhorrent, and his stated and demonstrated "love" for me put me in a terrible position of resenting him and fearing the loss of his approval. As far as he knew I appreciated his company and loved him back, because I felt I had no choice. I could sense from a young age what his feelings were regardless of the fact that he never acted on them. And while I suppose I can appreciate the fact that he never pushed it farther, that didn't stop the repeated nightmares about being raped by him, which continued for years after I ceased having to be in contact with him.

This man's power and emotional abuse were indeed inherent in his "love" for me. And while you may say your relationship with your mentor had a positive effect on you, the fact remains that there was no way your mentor could have known for sure that was how it would turn out. Maybe it didn't work out as well with other boys, whether he touched them or not. I say if what you're doing has the chance of emotionally scarring a child, you must not do it, even if it falls within the realm of "harmless" from a legal standpoint.

[sean]

Originally Posted by jinx

Sean, is there any chance you would describe for us your first sexual encounter? Ie. were you molested?

No I was never molested, altho you might be interested in some other comments I've made to Cloud and DanaC. I mentioned a medical condition, which included a mild form of intersex involving genital surgery, and also an endocrine disturbance that was treated with drugs. These kinds of experience often impact on adult sexuality, and I am currently researching in that area. I think there is probably a lot more counseling available for children like me these days.

Besides this, I had some difficult experiences in my childhood, which I've already mentioned. Some violence and some other kinds of abuse, and also some paradoxes. For one, altho I wasn't sexually precocious (quite the opposite, I had a very late puberty) I really loved girls when I was a young boy, and I also had a lot of opportunities for sex play. This was always consensual and enjoyable, and in many ways my sex life up until age ten was as good as it's ever been.

I don't subscribe to the abused/abuser theory, but I'm open to the possibility that my childhood has influenced the way I feel now. I'm resistant to simplistic pathologizing tho.

[TheMercenary]