Is being gay morally wrong?

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by aimeecc

This leads me to believe its wrong, even though logically the two aren't necessarily related.

This is the thing crusades, inquisitions, and holocausts are made of. Perhaps a good argument can be made against homosexuality, but this isn't it.

[aimeecc]

If someone is in a monogamous relationship, be it hetero or homo, I think it is fine. It happens that the 'popularization' of homosexuality coincides with society loosened its morals, which I believe are wrong. The two are not logically connected, although some may argue they are related, since the populizers of both (Hollywood) are one and the same.

What I have a problem with is people that are gay because its popular, and homosexuals that feel the need to broadcast their preference. If someone wasn't gay in 1980 when it wasn't popular, why are they gay 20 years later? Either you are or you aren't, and it shouldn't matter what celebrities are or are not gay, and who does and does not accept it. Being homosexual shouldn't be a statement, just like me being heterosexual isn't a statement. It integral to my being, but I don't need to stand on a street corner with a placard in hand "I'M STRAIGHT".

So long as everyone involved is doing so willingly and know the risks.

How is promiscuity morally wrong, if you haven't promised someone you'll be faithful to them? How does it damage society when no agreement is being broken?

Its not the individual that deals with the consequences of the risks. Society bears the burden of unwanted children growing up in environments that are not conducive to producing productive citizens. The healthcare system bears the burden of treating STDs, fighting HIV and AIDS, and supporting those that are no longer able to work. For those insured, the insurance companies pass the cost of the treating HIV and AIDS to their other costumers.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by aimeecc

What I have a problem with is people that are gay because its popular,

Very few people match this description, and the problem with them isn't the gayness.

and homosexuals that feel the need to broadcast their preference. If someone wasn't gay in 1980 when it wasn't popular, why are they gay 20 years later?

Who says they weren't? Maybe you just assumed they weren't because they were hiding it? It seems like they do need to broadcast it, or people will assume they don't exist.

Broadcasting gayness helps transform passive discrimination (assuming that the minority is irrelevant) into active discrimination (attacking those uppity gays for flaunting themselves). Active discrimination starts to repulse decent people, and the rules get changed. Eventually, broadcasting is no longer necessary, as it is now part of the general assumption.

[Sheldonrs]

[quote=aimeecc;426579]...Society bears the burden of unwanted children growing up in environments that are not conducive to producing productive citizens...QUOTE]

I'm not sure if they explained how homosexuality works but...

If a gay couple has kids, it's pretty much because they wanted them.

[Kerotan]

I wasn't planing on posting in this thread, especially not when my motivation for the post resides in the realm of the tangential.

Originally Posted by Phage0070

Suppose a man falls out of a boat in the ocean and finds himself completely submerged. A fellow boater suggests that the man hold his breath. Kant disagrees, saying that if we universalize the axiom we would all asphyxiate. Kant is also a moron.

In a little defense of Kant, I think that the axiom there would rather be, "when it is needed in oder for my own survival, I shall hold my breath, until there becomes such a time when holding my breath is not required for my survival, or such a time that I need oxygen to stay alive"

Originally Posted by Phage0070

Do the rich somehow have a greater supply or access to their own sexual organs? It could be argued that they have access to more *other* sexual organs I suppose, or that they have more free time, but I don't see anything about being poor that prevents being gay.

Here I was drawing an example from ancient Greece, where it was not uncommon for rich men to have same sex relationships, and as a common theme it was more a preserve of the rich, wholly because the lives of the poor are not recorded in isolation.
So it was a rather poor example, but my main focus behind the whole "what do you think" line was purely to stimulate some intellectual debate, albeit rather poorly.

And here was my motivation for the post,

I found this at the bottom of the page as I was posting and I found it rather appropriate to the topic In hand.

"A-C-L-U We defend your right to screw!
--American Civil Liberties Union slogan chanted at Chicago's 25th Annual Gay and Lesbian Pride parade"

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by Kerotan

In a little defense of Kant, I think that the axiom there would rather be, "when it is needed in oder for my own survival, I shall hold my breath, until there becomes such a time when holding my breath is not required for my survival, or such a time that I need oxygen to stay alive"

No fair! Breathing is as much a biological imperative in the long term as sexual reproduction, so you would need to modify Kant's argument to be something like "When it is needed in order for my own wellbeing, I shall partake in homosexual relations, until there becomes such a time when homosexual relations are not required for my wellbeing, or such a time that I require sexual reproduction to pass on my bloodline." This would of course undermine his conclusion, which was the point of drawing the parallel. Kant's reasoning does not allow dipping in and out of a behavior as appropriate, it simply suggests that the behavior is *never* appropriate.

And thank you Cicero, for the welcome.

[DanaC]

Its also seemed like its more acceptable to be 'experimental' and trying to figure out your sexual preference, or acceptance for trying anything and everything. And I believe this to be immoral.

Why is that immoral?

[Aliantha]

over the last 2 decades, along with the loosening of morals on pre-marital sex, there seems to be a large acceptance on sexual promiscuity. More than acceptance... almost expectance.

Maybe these things are occuring because western society is finally starting to realize that we've put unrealistic expectations/restrictions on our behaviours with regard to things that are natural and right.

[aimeecc]

Why is that immoral?

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Maybe these things are occuring because western society is finally starting to realize that we've put unrealistic expectations/restrictions on our behaviours with regard to things that are natural and right.

Being moral is conforming to a standard of what is right and good. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Being sexually promiscuous is not right or good in my opinon, and in the opinion of the world's major religions. And its not confined to 'western society'. If you are religious, your God has 'rules' on right and wrong behavior. For those that question the divine inspiration of religion, one factor pointed to for their creation was to keep a society in order. And order necessitates rules of right and wrong behavior.

So why would sexual promiscuity be wrong? Because it is bad for society. Why is it bad? First is the obvious chance of unwanted pregnancy. Unwanted children is a burden on the society. Second is the risk of STDs, which can be fairly harmless (warts), causing infertility (chlamydia, gonorrhea), or lead to death (Hepititis C, HIV). The second two aren't particularly good for a society that needs a healthy thriving population. As for the argument of birth control and condoms, they are not 100% effective, and a lot of people don't use them. Third is the breaking apart of family, as husbands and wives cheat on each other to do what 'feels good', giving into instant gratification, instead of doing what is right. In the end giving into temptation to do what feels good leads to pain - physical and mental. Even if the pain is not instantaneous, or felt within a week or month... at some point many people come to regret their previous behavior. Does a man want to marry a slut, and wonder when they go to dinner how many men in the restaurant she screwed? Does a woman want to marry a whore, and wonder just how many children he has running around the world? Is that something you would want to brag to your parents "hey mom, I'm marrying the biggest whore on campus, but don't worry, his/her chlamydia cleared up with antibiotics."

I don't want my son to grow up and sleep with a different person every Friday night. That's not happiness. That's instant gratification. I want him to date, and find that special someone who will make him happy for the rest of his life - not just for an hour or a night. Jumping into bed with someone on the first date complicates the dating process. Not that it means it won't work... but chances are it won't. There will always be the question "does he/she jump in bed with everyone she/he went on a date with?" One (or both) parties may feel that since they slept together, they should automatically be 'dating' whether they are compatible or not, leading to months/years of unfullfillment on a higher emotional level... instead of going on a few dates without sex and coming to the conclusion that they aren't compatible, and being able to walk away without the emotions that sex carries.

[Sheldonrs]

Never understood why people are so against sex with lots of different people and "instant gratification". So long as everyone involved is doing so willingly and know the risks. I like sex and like different acts with different guys.
For me, sex with "a different person every Friday night" is a slow week.

[Cicero]

Immanuel Kant is also from the Enlightenment Period, and highly religious. Funny you would quote him to find problems with the ghey. Why don't you go ahead and quote the pope in Rome?

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Immanuel Kant is also from the Enlightenment Period, and highly religious. Funny you would quote him to find problems with the ghey. Why don't you go ahead and quote the pope in Rome?

Unfortunately, if we are going to disregard theories from those in positions likely to color their take on the situation we would also be forced to ignore the views of homosexuals who frequent the thread.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Phage0070

Unfortunately, if we are going to disregard theories from those in positions likely to color their take on the situation we would also be forced to ignore the views of homosexuals who frequent the thread.

Yes it is unfortunate isn't it. I read Kant and agree with some of his classifications...I would not diregard Kant in any way...I'm just pointing out the fact that he's being used here in lieu of many other moralists to gain the moral highground which is the argueable point, I believe.


The bottom line....(I am really saying it was an improper cite from Kant)
There is a veritable grab-bag out there from many periods and philosophies on Moralist topics. I think people need to be able to further their own point by using sources and proper interpretations. Nice to meet you Phage!! (we haven't met yet)

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Immanuel Kant is also from the Enlightenment Period, and highly religious. Funny you would quote him to find problems with the ghey. Why don't you go ahead and quote the pope in Rome?

I think Kant was an asshole, but I respect the Pope and his opinions.

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by classicman

I think Kant was an asshole, but I respect the Pope and his opinions.

Isn't the whole point of having a religious leader so that what might otherwise be considered their opinion holds greater sway due to presumed divinity backing them up? The Pope's moral advice isn't considered on the basis of him being "a pretty swell guy" but on the presumption that he is the chosen mouthpiece of Almighty God. Thus, his "opinions" would be much more than opinions if you follow his religion, and *only* opinions if you don't.

Going from context I am assuming Cicero's issue with Kant stemmed from his religious leanings and less about his personal character, and the same would apply to the Pope. Either the Pope is speaking with religious justification (which Cicero apparently does not agree with) or he is simply "some guy" with an opinion, which is nearly worthless without logical support.