University to students: 'All whites are racist'

[bluecuracao]

Not personal "shame," anyway. But society as a whole should be aware of historical acts, and recognize which ones shouldn't be repeated, and maybe even need to be corrected...to help the present eventually become better history, hopefully.

Even though none of us are individually responsible for what happened in history (good and bad), it's still part of what we are, because we came from it.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

No one should carry around "shame" for historical acts unless you were directly responsible in some way.

On the surface it makes good sense. I tend to agree. But I wonder about this.

What if you today are continuing to benefit from some historical act, while someone else is continuing to be a victim from the same act? Let me make up an example: If your great grandfather was a pirate who amassed great wealth by stealing it from others. You grew up in this rich family, and today you meet a descendant of one of your great grandfather's victims. You are wearing some expensive jewelry that used to belong to the family of this other guy. You didn't personally steal it, but you still posses it. Should you feel shame for that? (I think yes.)

Now change the example to something that's more of a gray area. You grew up in an old plantation in the South. Your family is one of the few that is still well off from the money generated by slave labor over a century ago. Should you feel shame that you are well off, while some of the descendants of your family's former slaves live in poverty? (I think yes, a little.)

One final example. You are the child of immigrants, living in the South. Nobody in your family even lived in this country during the time that slavery was legal. You work hard and save up enough money to buy a nice historic old house that happens to have been built by slave labor. Any shame there? (I think no.)

[lookout123]

You are wearing some expensive jewelry that used to belong to the family of this other guy. You didn't personally steal it, but you still posses it. Should you feel shame for that? (I think yes.)

Why? Did I steal it? Did I do anything to possess it other than be born? Did the other guy do anything that necessarily entitles him to possess it? If it is something that is easily identifiable as historical item of significance and important to the other guy's family, then it would be an act of class to gift it to him, but certainly not necessary.

Should you feel shame that you are well off, while some of the descendants of your family's former slaves live in poverty? (I think yes, a little.)

Again, why? Did I personally do anything that led these people into poverty? My guilt or feelings of discomfort are reserved for things that I have some sort of control over. I can't control what happened then, I can control what I do now. Flip it to the otherside (much smaller scale) My grandfather once invested in and owned large tracts of land where midway airport is today. He was absolutely and verifiably screwed over by a couple of individuals who became stinking wealthy and have passed that wealth on to the current generation. My grandfather never recovered financially and died penniless and had nothing to pass on. Should I have some claim to those riches? I don't think so, those were events before I was born and have no bearing ont he choices I make with my life and the opportunities I have in front of me.

You work hard and save up enough money to buy a nice historic old house that happens to have been built by slave labor. Any shame there? (I think no.)

absolutely not, it is just a piece of property and who built it is of little relevance except for coctail party conversation.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why? Did I steal it? Did I do anything to possess it other than be born? Did the other guy do anything that necessarily entitles him to possess it? If it is something that is easily identifiable as historical item of significance and important to the other guy's family, then it would be an act of class to gift it to him, but certainly not necessary.

Let's assume in this example that if it hadn't been stolen a century ago, it would be his. And you both know it, but it can't be proven in any court.

You say it would be a class act to return it. I agree. I'd go further and say there is shame in continuing to hold onto it, because it's ill gotten. I think that by continuing to hold onto it, the person is actively continuing a misdeed done by their ancestor.

I don't know where to draw the line though. I think something like paying off the descendants of the slaves would be drawing the line too far, for example.

[Clodfobble]

I agree, I'm just pointing out that his statement that DanaC must be "proud" of negative aspects of her history is not accurate (leaving aside the fact that he has her heritage on the wrong continent in his examples.)

[DanaC]

There are different types of pride. A parent can feel great pride in their children's achievements. Part of that will be born of their part in creating the child and raising it to make those achievements. But part of it will be a pride born of love or close association. That is a different source of pride to the personal pride one takes in one's own achievements.

The pride I feel in my heritage is born of *thinks* associating into, identifying with that heritage. What is important to me about that heritage is not connected with skin colour, but rather with cultural associations and a sense of my place in the chain. My world is not just made up of what is, but also of what has been.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

After Grendel pointed this thread out to me, I sampled three pages.

What I see here is the Cellarers at their finest and most sensible.

And let us thank whatever Powers we acknowledge for the good sense of President Harker.

[TheMercenary]

I believe the Aussie had their own problems at home:

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/colonial/abo...ralia_map.html

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/colonial/Abo...tralia_Map.jpg

[DanaC]

I think the situation in the colonies is a different matter to the situation in the UK itself. In terms of racial segregation, there was really only de facto segregation, rather than de jure segregation.

Obviously, prior to the abolition of the slave trade in britain, there were black slaves, but not in the same numbers as there were in sugar growing colonies. There would have been a few cities where large numbers of slaves would be processed, but the serving classes in the UK were the lower social orders, not imported slaves. Even then, one could be black and free, being black did not automatically confer inferior status in law.

We did, however, have laws limiting the particiation of Catholics, Jews and non-Anglican protestants, up until, I believe the 19th century.

Mostly our legal constraints on the person have historically settled onto the working classes and the very poor. And....y'know...the Irish....and women.

Within the colonies, however, we would often institute very codified and strictly hierarchical systems which would take account of racial background and class. In the British colonial mindset, the average middle-class / upper-class administrator would have far more in common with the ruling elites of the countries they governed than than the working-classes of their own culture.

It's a different history to America. Class is/was a much bigger factor in our political culture, I think.

[Aliantha]

Australia as a colony has a disgusting record as far as racism goes.

We're descended from people who thought it was ok to hunt down all the aboriginal people in Tasmania and shoot them, basically so that there were no aboriginals left alive on the island.

Of course, this is possibly the worst thing as far as cold blooded murder goes, but let's not forget the stolen generation (the systematic removal of aboriginal children from their families) and the fact that aboriginal people were not even allowed to participate in government processes (including voting) till about the 1970's.

Oh yes, when an Australian talks about racism, they're speaking from a position of experience that's for sure.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why? Did I steal it? Did I do anything to possess it other than be born? Did the other guy do anything that necessarily entitles him to possess it? If it is something that is easily identifiable as historical item of significance and important to the other guy's family, then it would be an act of class to gift it to him, but certainly not necessary.

How does this compare to, say, things stolen by the Nazis in WWII? How about buying stolen speakers out of the back of a van? (Assuming the items in question can be verifiably traced back to the specific people they were stolen from.)

On the one hand, I feel there is definitely a statute of limitations on crime--not just a legal one, but an ethical one. But on the other, if all you did to get the expensive jewelry was to be born, then if it's returned to the rightful owner then that shouldn't really affect you either, right?

[lookout123]

Items stolen by the Nazis? Well, if it something that has been knowingly kept in a warehouse hidden from prying eyes all these years because the owner stole it and doesn't want to give it back... i think there is an obvious case for it's return. If it something that has been out in circulation for 60 years, been bought and sold, and transferred around... well, life's a bitch and bad stuff happens to possessions in a war. move on. If the current owner feels compelled to return it, fine. if not, fine. it's just stuff.

Speakers out of a van? c'mon, i knowingly purchased something under shady circumstances. LJ may be a nice guy but if he is selling it out of a van I know i'm taking my chances.

Just like I do not feel pride for something I have not personally done or had anything to do with nor will I accept guilt/remorse for anything I have not personally done/created including the "big picture" shit, ignorant people love to lay at the doorstep of Americans and any wealthy.

[queequeger]

This thread has turned interesting... 'Are we responsible for our ancestors' actions?' has always been a point of indecision for me. It's against that whole 'american spirit' to take handouts, yet we feel justified if it's wealth passed down from our parents. On the other hand, we're supposedly not responsible for the sins of the father.

So we get all the benefits (i.e. wealth, social standing, nice jewelry), but don't have to suffer any of the negatives. This has always seemed a little twisted, and gives a heavy advantage to those on the upper crust of society. Sure I'm a millionaire because my dad screwed over thousands of people throughout his lifetime. Not my fault, but I'll keep the money if it's all the same to you. While this doesn't sit right, is it therefore OK to take money from that person because he didn't earn it? Not really.

So I got to thinking a few nights ago. This idea that 'I've earned everything I worked for, and I get all the credit for it,' doesn't fit logically. Let's think, did I make my car? Did I cast the iron and paint the body and set the timing, etc? On the same hand, did I invent my iPod, and build it from scratch?

Ok, so I work 40 hours a week for all the things I own, which is fair compensation for that amorphous society for what it gives me in return. So, it would logically follow that people who work 40 hours a week (if you include compensation for their time spent in college, and other training) get a fair living.

So why is it that Joe Citizen who worked 200 years ago got relatively little compensation? Because his ancestors had not yet done the work for him. He had no ipods or automobiles. It stands to reason that no one actually earns everything they get. We are all standing on the shoulders of everyone that came before us, so none of us can rightfully claim to have earned everything we were given (unless you live in the woods, built everything you own, and hunt for your food). Is this something to be ashamed about? Probably not, but it's certainly a bit bull headed to claim that I worked for what I got, and someone else who works just as hard if not harder doesn't deserve the same.

We're all getting handouts from our grandfathers, but the handouts aren't the same.

[bluecuracao]

Oh quee, you are so ignorant with your "big picture" shit.