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Old 05-30-2007, 08:41 PM   #1
Happy Monkey
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Why not? What premise are you objecting to?
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:43 PM   #2
xoxoxoBruce
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the real world is not that simple. If you want to flow chart it, go ahead and get back to me in a hundred years.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
the real world is not that simple. If you want to flow chart it, go ahead and get back to me in a hundred years.
But what premise is oversimplified? Where is the complication that invalidates the question?
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
Why not? What premise are you objecting to?
The conclusion.

He doesnt like the conclusion, so he has to reject the whole flow. He cant find where the logic doesn't work, so he starts at the top.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ibram View Post
The conclusion.

He doesnt like the conclusion, so he has to reject the whole flow. He cant find where the logic doesn't work, so he starts at the top.
And, to be specific, the conclusion is NOT that you shouldn't support the Death Penalty or the Death Penalty is just plain wrong.
The conclusion is something very specific: the literal conclusion of a simple, logical analysis of known factors. It is not an opinion or a feeling.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:04 PM   #6
xoxoxoBruce
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Saying the legal system, being a system, can not be perfect means anyone supporting the death penalty supports killing innocent people is bullshit.

Quote:
- Do you believe that the judicial system is 100% infallible?

If Yes: You have not "limited your thinking" via logic. (This is not an actual option).
If No: Then you must acknowledge the possibility that people will be wrongly convicted/sentenced/executed.
Yes is an option, like it or not. No, does not mean there is a possibility.
First, the legal system deals with more than death penalty cases.
Second, attention and care is allocated by the seriousness of the consequences.
Traffic tickets, you pay or go to court, lose and you have one appeal.
Death penalty cases are long and complicated with many mandatory appeals and reviews, designed to check and correct any mistakes along the way. It would take a bunch of mistakes, unchecked and uncorrected, and that's not happening.
I can make wrong turns on the way to work and still get to the right place.
So no, I don't buy because it's not 100% infallible they are going to execute any innocent people. That is not a given.

Quote:
- Do you support the state-sanctioned execution of innocent human beings?

If Yes: You must consciously accept innocent deaths as a trade-off for the benefits of the Death Penalty.
No must about it. That's only true if I buy your previous premise and I don't.
Quote:
If No: You do not accept innocent deaths as a trade-off for the benefits of the Death Penalty. You cannot support the Death Penalty.
That's not true either.
Quote:
If No, BUT you SUPPORT the Death Penalty: You have not "limited your thinking" via logic. (This is not an actual option).
Why, because I must accept your logic, you carefully constructed to lead to where you want it to go? No, I believe your logic is flawed. Like many things that make sense when you simplify to a few generalities, but don't actually work in the real world because that's not simple.

You can object to the Death penalty on moral grounds, if you wish, but the basis of executing innocents doesn't pass muster.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Saying the legal system, being a system, can not be perfect means anyone supporting the death penalty supports killing innocent people is bullshit.
Do you believe that there is a ZERO PERCENT chance of executing an innocent person: Yes or No...??? Can you answer this direct question?
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Death penalty cases are long and complicated with many mandatory appeals and reviews, designed to check and correct any mistakes along the way. It would take a bunch of mistakes, unchecked and uncorrected, and that's not happening.
Yes it is. Volunteer groups are continually finding evidence that was missing, ignored, or suppressed during trial and exonerating people who have exhausted their appeals. Six in PA, just two fewer than Texas. Innocent convicts not lucky enough to get that volunteer attention (or not lucky enough for the real killer to have left DNA evidence, or not lucky enough for any evidence from the trial to have been properly stored, etc.) have been and will continue to be executed.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:51 PM   #9
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Getting it yet, Bruce?
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:34 AM   #10
Aliantha
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Yeah but what if you do kill someone who's innocent?
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:01 AM   #11
xoxoxoBruce
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You can't, the court says they are guilty before they are executed.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:02 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
You can't, the court says they are guilty before they are executed.
The courts have been wrong before and they will be again. That means innocent people have been and will be killed in future thanks to the death penalty.

Aside from my own moral objections which I've stated before so am not going to worry about saying them again.
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Old 06-01-2007, 04:02 PM   #13
xoxoxoBruce
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That's why death penalty cases make repeated trips through the system, by law, Ali.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:39 AM   #14
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They've already gone back and DNA-proved a bunch of people that were executed (mostly in Texas) were innocent...

A court finding someone to be guilty is not the same as them being guilty.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:26 AM   #15
xoxoxoBruce
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Originally Posted by Ibram View Post
They've already gone back and DNA-proved a bunch of people that were executed (mostly in Texas) were innocent...
I don't dispute it has happened, especially in Texas and other places where there is racial tension. What I said was I don't believe PA is going to execute any innocent people and I support the death penalty.
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