George "Macacawitz" Allen on Guns

[DanaC]

Those were statements, equating the need for firearms with the middle ages... a very incorrect statement,

Sorry, you've misunderstood, or I have put my point across badly. The middle-ages thing was in response to someone else basically saying that militia was not something that a Brit would have any understanding of. I was merely making the point that we (Brits) have a much longer history of having a militia than in not having armed citizenry.

The point is still incorrect.
Our founding fathers also believed that an armed militia was required in case the government got too big for their britches.
The people should never fear their government, the government should always fear the people was a basic principal of our founding fathers.

Loading my own rounds means I load my own brass... I do not need to buy commercial rounds for my weapons if I do not want to. I can reload them myself, and do for my rifles.

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." ~George Mason~

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder

TJ on Disarming Public
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for
the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria


“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”
-- Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (February 6, 1788).


“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
-- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).


“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).


“I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426, June 16, 1788

“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person
were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified
in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would
be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard
even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine,
Dissertation On First Principles Of Government

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

[DanaC]

How is the point still incorrect?

I refer you to my earlier point:

Okay. Serious question:

I understand the logic of armed citizenry. I even agree, to a certain extent with the wisdom of that concept. After all, a citizenry who aren't armed are potentially at the mercy of powerful armed governments. What I don't understand is the desire to walk around armed. Is life so dangerous that people feel the need to carry weaponry wherever they go? Who/what does the gun protect them from? How likely is it that someone will need to use their gun?

I have already agreed that, in principle, the idea of an armed citizenry is a potentially good thing, because otherwise it is at risk from a powerful and armed government.....in what way have I disagreed with you?

The point I made was in response to someone, as I have already said, who suggested that somehow being British meant one didn't have a cultural understanding of militia.

I guess I misunderstood your point about the militia.

[DanaC]

Okay

[Aliantha]

Right, so now you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view has psychological problems? lol

You're on a roll today UG.

I'm still trying to figure out how more funding will make me safer in a park...


UG, or anyone else, how much kick do the Glock Slimline .45s have?
I want a .45 that will not break my wrist. I need the smaller handle, like on the Glock 6, because I want to get a good grip in it. I am only wanting a .45 and have to have a Glock. It is what I used on the ranch and just won't use anything else (wind, rain, sand, pond, pig-shit... still fires). Greatest handgun of all time. Always used the .45 for stopping power and the fact I could get rounds at Wal-Mart (hey, we worked all the time in the middle of nowhere). I have a revolver now, but want to go back to a pistol, which I turned back in when I left the ranch and the one I used when in security. I have never owned one of my own, just issued through work.

[monster]

[quote=rkzenrage]I'm still trying to figure out how more funding will make me safer in a park...

More Rangers to watch over you and check on the bad guys?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I'd bet it's a little bouncier on firing if your Slimline is a small-magazine type. Anything as big as the 17 or the 20-odds will have that much more bullet mass to soak up the acceleration, with the heavier weight of a magazine of .40 or .45 bullets being noticeable. You might notice the slide cycles faster -- I've noticed that about some 9mms versus my .45 1911 types. Everything would get done a hair quicker.

You can get pistol competition things like PAST gloves to help with recoil owie during practice sessions. While you wouldn't lumber yourself with these during carry-use, they'd make for comfort while you get your marksmanship refined to whatever degree you want to afford. Then a little practice barehanded, as you carry, to iron out any differences of pointing or feel, and you're all kinds of ready.

Glock 36 -- 6 rd magazine, 765 grams fully loaded, over a pound and a half. The lighter slide means less perceived recoil than the bigger 1911 type pistols, part of whose kick is really the feel of a fairly massive slide going back and forth.

Aliantha, I'll assume from your smiley that you're being completely facetious. However, seriously now, you've reversed cause and effect: when I hoist the banner of self defense, guess who or what crawls out of the woodwork? We have seen the hoplophobic neurosis on extensive display from Spexxvet. The people who are sane, and knowledgeable, on self defense do not fight me.

[Aliantha]

Well there was some truth to my comment UG. If you have a fault, it's being a bit obnoxious with some of your comments.

As to why I don't think people need to carry guns, well, I've stated my opinion on the matter endlessly and so, at this point, since I live in a country where hand guns are illegal and the majority of the population feel this is a good thing, I'll just be thankful I live in a country where I don't have to fight this battle.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I'll just be thankful I live in a country where I don't have to fight this battle.

And ours, Ali, is a country that expects its citizens to be the ones to keep it a capital-R Republic, regardless of anything.

Not for nothing did Thomas Jefferson, our third President, write "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Thanks UG... though I will get some flack for having a "chick gun", it is popular with females in the military and cops, particularly the Coast Guard in positions where they don't have to carry the 9 (the Guard's standard issue is the Glock 9)... I think it will be best for me now.
(I have fractured my wrist again and torn a tendon now... it will not heal properly this time)

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

... I think it will be best for me now.
(I have fractured my wrist again and torn a tendon now... it will not heal properly this time)

Ack!

Okay, this is going to sound pretty weird, but learn to shoot with your other hand. This will at least stop further damage until your body can get on top of things again -- or your orthopedic surgeon does.

[Aliantha]

Just one thing I wanted to share with you.

It's nice living in a place where you don't feel afraid every time you walk out the door. A place where you can walk down the street and see someone walking towards you and not think they might be going to mug you. A place where the safety is all around you, not just on your gun.

Having or not having a gun has nothing to do with that. Your neighborhood and your perspective on chance and being in the moment does.
I think destiny is a farce and do not worry about things I cannot control. I do my best to mitigate possible outcomes, after that, I don't sweat it... so it does not matter for those like me.
For those that sweat it, no number of guns, street-corner cameras raping us, cops, lost rights, etc, etc, etc, will be enough.