Why would one choose to be a soldier?

[Catwoman]

The latter.

Originally Posted by wolf

So the only way that people can tap into the collective unconscious and come up with society advancing ideas is not to move forward at all?

The moving forward comes later after the thought formation. You can do anything! Attempt to move forward or just sit still (these are m.e.t.a.p.h.o.r.s) and the thought will come (or not) regardless. You know when you're struggling to remember something and it's really annoying? As soon as you forget about it you remember. In the same way ideas can occur without expressly 'doing' something. They don't JUST come when you're idle, but they CAN come without movement.

I hope this explains it.

[wolf]

Sorta. But I still disagree.

[lookout123]

you know this just feels like hokey hippy BS to me. one too many tokes and lets all just hug. we're all one big community man...

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by lookout123

you know this just feels like hokey hippy BS to me. one too many tokes and lets all just hug. we're all one big community man...

Hey! I was going to say that. My mind needs a firewall.

[lookout123]

let's hug man... it seems that we've been visiting the same cache in the collective consciousness.

[Undertoad]

What evidence do you have of this strange new hard-to-describe semi-metaphysical construction? It's not hard to imagine creativity involving different states of mind, different cranial connections happening when one is eating or relaxed or what have you.

[mrnoodle]

although me, beestie and lookout were simultaneously thinking the same thing, just from different angles......

[Happy Monkey]

I gotta say, there ain't many times I'll add a "me too" to lookout and mrnoodle, but this is one of those times.

It's certainly common for someone to have an epiphany when they've stopped consciously working on the problem (ie the phrase "sleep on it"), but I'm not going to make the leap of attributing it to telepathy.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I gotta say, there ain't many times I'll add a "me too" to lookout and mrnoodle, but this is one of those times.

Given this unprecedented meeting of the minds (oops, no pun intended) and given Cat's affection for metaphors, I propose a metaphor for Cat's idea:

[Catwoman]

*doesn't need to say anything because you already know what I'm thinking*

[Catwoman]

Ok ok, I agree all of this sounds hippy/bullshit and is completely unprovable. So for most of you, stop reading now.

For those with slightly more lateral minds, let's remove the hippy associations attached to the words and try and advance....

Look I'm not asking you to believe me, just be open to the idea and watch life around you, and see if it's true. You can see all the same things I can. Do you really think you create? I argue that we only modify what already exists. What have we actually, tangibly created? Nothing. So it must have come from somewhere else. I don't know about the words 'god' or even 'collective consciousness' (although this is slightly more precise), they're probably just confusing the issue.

It is not a tangible 'network' as such, just what is there. God I realise this is sounding shite but I'm sorry I don't have the words to express it.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Is there no original thought, then?

Yes, but to assume it comes from 'you' or 'me' is the slip-up.

Originally Posted by Beestie

isn't it more rational to believe that communality and co-incidence in human behavior and the history of ideas is a function of the similarity of humans and the needs which drive the ideas rather than an utterly unprovable hypothesis of a collective consciousness?

same thing.

Originally Posted by Beestie

Seems to me that you have fallen in love with the idea and exempted it from rigorous critque and you are frustrated that your Cellar mates aren't as willing to do likewise.

Hmm, possibly. I don't mean to come across as closed. It's just this is such a difficult thing to explain (for me anyway) that trying to 'argue' it in the usual way doesn't always work. I have no proof or back-up; I'm on my own! And the hippies don't count, they just say these things to feel better about mis-spent lives. Well I can assure you it certainly doesn't make me feel better when I try to communicate and it's met by resistance from everyone! No, not a call for pity, I don't want to be agreed with, just someone to go 'ah right now I get it'.

[lookout123]

but back to the original idea of this thread - why would one choose to be a soldier?

i ponder this one every day, but have been focusing on it even more the past couple of months. i've got 8 months before yet another enlistment is over for me. contrary to what many think, we don't just blindly reenlist because there are no other options.

my situation is causing me considerable heartburn right now. i've got 13 years in, and i love it. i love what we do, i love what we stand for, i love the common ground that we share in the unit. i love that in the military you can cement incredibly strong bonds with other people in a very short amount of time - it only makes sense when there is the ever present knowledge that one way, or another you probably will be around this person for 2 years. when the buildup to the war in Iraq was going on it was suggested that we shouldn't wear our uniforms off base as a way of avoiding possible conflict and attention. most of us said BS and wore them anyway. we are who we are, whether anyone likes it or not, we are needed. to sum it up, i am very proud of my involvement with the US military.

the flip side of that is that i've lost clients in my civilian practice because A) they are anti-military (only 1 family) B) because they are afraid of me getting called up and they want someone else to handle their money.
I miss a lot of time with my wife and son due to my military obligations. they live with the thought always at the back of their minds that i may get called up for 2 weeks or 2 years. my wife doesn't say much, but i know that it worries her.

financially? i lose $400-500 every day i spend with my unit instead of in civilian practice. when i get activated for 2-3 weeks it can erase as much as 2 months worth of productivity because of my business cycle. if i get activated for 3 months (which is sure to happen in the next year or two) or longer i will lose @1/3 of my clientele permanently, not to mention that my military pay is only about 15% of my civilian expectations. so obviously we don't do it for the current pay. maybe it is the retirement? probably not - you can't collect a check until you are 60, even if you retire at 45, many don't live to collect their first check as small as it is.(about enough for a car payment)

so considering all of this, why do I still do it? it is hard to put into words. to paraphrase Lt Gen Hal Moore (ret): it isn't for my country, a flag, mom and dad, and apple pie. we stay and sacrifice for each other.

i'm concerned that so many of my generation think that the military and use of force is only for the storied past. it concerns me to think that many see what is happening today and don't believe that there were opponents, dissidents, and hardships surrounding every single combat operation the US military has been involved in. it concerns me that too many of my generation aren't willing to stand up for anything, because of a misconception that pretty words and diplospeak can solve anything and everything without a shot ever being fired.

that is all on my mind, but more pressing is the fact that if i don't reenlist this time around, due to transfers and promotions, there is no one trained and able to run my shop should i leave. they would make do, find someone, or train someone and in the long run, be just fine - but the thought of leaving these people that i haved worked for and with in the lurch so that i'm not inconvenienced by another deployment... it just grates on my very being. i'm not sure if i can walk away with my head held high if i do it that way.

so if you were at all interested in why someone would choose to be a soldier... that is a little glimpse into the reality of what at least one person thinks.

edit: the paragraph talking about "my generation" is not meant to disparage anyone who hasn't or won't serve. not everyone is cut out for the military and that is why i have and will always oppose mandatory service.

[lookout123]

Look I'm not asking you to believe me, just be open to the idea and watch life around you, and see if it's true.

Cat are you even aware that this is the same thought that you would deride a Christian for?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

it concerns me that too many of my generation aren't willing to stand up for anything, because of a misconception that pretty words and diplospeak can solve anything and everything without a shot ever being fired.

I won't speak for any larger issue, but when it comes to Iraq, the "anything" it was supposed to stand for, and the problem we were trying to solve changed several times during the buildup, execution, and aftermath of the war. You can't deride someone for not standing for something if you aren's certain what the something is.

[lookout123]

i don't disagree with you HM. that is just a part of being in the military. we are not all stupid as many seem to think. we don't get to decide which battles to fight, which wars to go to, we aren't mercenaries. whether we agree with the cause or not, it is our sworn duty to take the fight where we are told. there are conversations that might surprise you that military members have amongst themselves that you will never be privy to. there is the public face that we maintain, the soldier's perogative to bitch about everything, and then the reality of what we think that we keep within our ranks. those that break ranks and go to the media - F 'em, they don't get it. they shouldn't be in the military.