Gun does NOT equal cowboy! - Page 5

warch · 10-17-2003, 11:47 AM

Hey, I realise my opinion differs from the majority of cellar posters here, but I'm old and I'm pretty set in it, as I'm sure y'all are. And yes it is just my opinion, as the feeling that concealed handguns help prevent crime may be yours.

Yes, at this point, there is no solid, agreed upon statistical proof that conceal/carry handguns prevent crime. And what is particularly troubling about researcher and "expert" John Lott, whose widely circulated More guns-Less crime "study" has not only proven to be bogus, (and he's assumed an alternative internet identity to slander others) is that he has appeared as an "expert" before various state legislations, including MN, has figured significantly in their decisionmaking and statements.

And yes, at this point there is no solid agreed upon statistical proof that conceal/carry increases crime. So why oppose this free choice? Because I want to lower my risk and the risk of those I love of being shot by my fellow citizens.Even without statistical backup, I think more guns in a given area increases the odds of more guns being shot in a given area.

Quote:

You would be outraged if minorities weren't given the protection afforded to them in the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

You mean basic human rights, yes. And I'm outraged at the levels of gun violence in many urban minority communities. 1964 isnt 1791.

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You'd be fuming if the courts tried to limit our 1st Amendment rights through something like a Mapplethorpe exhibit.

Maplethorpe's case raised interesting cultural questions that were publically debated. I'm more fuming currently about the patriot act tracing my library books.Again a clash of rights.

All rights are not absolute, unless youre the only one here. When your right conflicts with my right, we need to negotiate to find the lesser evil.

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You see, the Democrats love to give people things...even if it costs taxpayers a ton of money. But yet, most Democrats and liberals seem to want to take guns away from people. It clearly seems like a 2nd Amendment violation to me, but the Democrats will try and justify it to no end. And I'm not saying this is necessarily you, warch, but that shit irks me to no end.That's as bad as conservatives trying to inject morality into our society...b/c they think it's the right thing for everyone.s

Heh heh, Yeah, Republicans save taxpayers money!
The whole 2nd amemdment debate- again- is there any limit to what arms one can bear? The idea that its absolute is not practical. Now, in this age, with the array of weaponry of 2003? I think handguns should be closely regulated. That's my opinion. I think conservatives, radical ones, have done a terrific job of injecting the "moral" justification, and paying for the bogus scientific proof, for unfettered personal possession of deadly weapons into our society. Its ironic.

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Plus, it's not really easy to get a CCW license..

Well, hurray for the Brady Bill! You support that then? From what I understand, besides the variation in rigor of background check, its like renewing your plates.

Ive stated the reasons why I oppose this law and the threat of increased crime is only one of the potential threats to public safety I feel will increase. But data is needed.

I'm interested in statistics that record gun violence. Looking consistently at not only what is considered criminal, but also recorded as accidental, suicidal. Not just deaths, but also injuries.

Did I feel nervous in Austin? Well its (was) the hippie stronghold, you know. There are other parts of Texas that freaked me out, for a number of reasons. But damn, that's good BBQ

Undertoad · 10-17-2003, 12:18 PM

I'd say that whether you're going to get shot or not, and moreover whether you're going to be killed or not, is more related to the local culture than the local gun laws.

That would be my takeaway from Austin: the presence of hippies overrules gun laws.

If someone wants a gun they can build one using cheap raw materials. If someone wants you dead they can blow you up or poison you or knife you or hire someone to kill you.

So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippies

vsp · 10-17-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippies

The problem is that when hippies attempt to create more hippies, many of the new little hippies end up turning into Alex P. Keatons later on...

OnyxCougar · 10-17-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uryoces
Did I miss something somewhere? Are you, OnyxCougar, a Brit? I have no problem understanding a British accent. Monty Python, BlackAdder, Fawlty Towers, Blake's Seven, and Doctor Who have served me well.

So I suppose you mentioned this several months back, and I just didn't notice?

I'm Brit-American, yes. And that's not to be pretentious (like "African-American" sounds pretentious to me, if you're black and your grandparents were born in America, you're a regular old American. Get over it.) but my father and his family were born in England, and my mom is American, her grandparents were born in Germany and Czechoslovakia.

I lived in England for quite a few years, off and on.

I generally consider myself American, except when people make comments about limeys. (grin @ ljim)

Elspode · 10-17-2003, 01:09 PM

As Syc noted in another thread, I'm a lazy fuck, so I was wondering if ya'll had noticed in the news anywhere that a St. Louis judge had blocked the implementation of concealed carry in Missouri? (probably one of Syc's more liberal relatives)

elSicomoro · 10-17-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
+10 for me to resume to pre-deduction points and -10 to Syc for posting without checking first.

My apologies...just giving you shit anyway.

I didn't know much about the whole dual citizenship thing before reading that...interesting. Though how did you get UK citizenship? By virtue of your father being a Brit? Or were you born there?

Ep, I posted about that last weekend in the Manifestos. And why aren't you reading the Manifestos? Tsk, tsk.

juju · 10-17-2003, 01:59 PM

Another gun debate?

OnyxCougar · 10-17-2003, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore

My apologies...just giving you shit anyway.

I didn't know much about the whole dual citizenship thing before reading that...interesting. Though how did you get UK citizenship? By virtue of your father being a Brit? Or were you born there?

I know you were just giving me shit, which is why I flung it rightbackatcha baby!

And I'm a UK citizen by way of my father, yes. Although, any American who wants to become a Brit citizen does NOT have to renounce their US citizenship to do so, they simply have to meet the UK requirements.

Strangely, to become a Croatian citizen, they require you to renounce citizenship from any other country.

warch · 10-17-2003, 03:09 PM

[/quote]So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippiess [quote]

Or remove regulations surrounding Marijuana ownership, concealed and otherwise, and usage. More pot/Less crime. Now there's a study to fund.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-17-2003, 04:03 PM

I always thought that too, warch. We often speculated the reason there was so much great pot, cheap, in Viet Nam was the commies were subsidizing it.

But last night there was some show on the discovery channel or someplace. I had company,so I really wasn't paying attention to their investigation how Shaka Zulu beat the British Army, until they concluded the Zulus had pot with a thc content of something like 25%(

) and that gave them the stamina.
Fight, if that's true, I want to know how they could walk???

elSicomoro · 10-17-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch
So why oppose this free choice? Because I want to lower my risk and the risk of those I love of being shot by my fellow citizens.

You make it sound like allowing CCW will turn civilized places into the Wild West. The Wild West is merely in movies and stories these days.

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Well, hurray for the Brady Bill! You support that then?

Not all of it. Sure, you can ban certain guns...of course, they'll still make their way here anyway. Banning shit doesn't work very well in this country...alcohol, drugs, etc.

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Did I feel nervous in Austin? Well its (was) the hippie stronghold, you know. There are other parts of Texas that freaked me out, for a number of reasons. But damn, that's good BBQ

I agree with UT to a point in regards to local culture, but Austin still has the same laws regarding guns as Houston or West Texas (more or less).

Pot to stop violence...shit! That would be great!

"Mr. Brown, you are ordered to smoke 4 joints a day. You will be required to have the THC content of your marijuana checked once a week..."

But then someone will want to corner the pot market, violence will be used to gain territory, and it will all go to...ummm...pot.

As long as technology continues to grow, so will the guns...and everything else. Bigger, faster, more powerful, etc.

slang · 10-17-2003, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch
Or remove regulations surrounding Marijuana ownership, concealed and otherwise, and usage. More pot/Less crime. Now there's a study to fund.

Now there's something I can support. I dont use pot but am solidly behind decriminalizing it. There's too much money spent harassing pot users.

And the argument that pot is a "gateway drug" is totally lost on me, I have never believed that.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-18-2003, 08:05 AM

Guns, pot, alcohol, spray paint or ice cream. There's nothing you can name that somebody won't use irresponsibly. The focus on specific items being a threat to the general public is misdirected.

The threat to the general public is the attitude that I'm more important than you are. My pleasure is more important that your health and welfare. I bear no personal responsibity for insult or injury to anyone else while I'm pursuing happiness. Oh...and lawyers.

Elspode · 10-18-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore

My apologies...just giving you shit anyway.

I didn't know much about the whole dual citizenship thing before reading that...interesting. Though how did you get UK citizenship? By virtue of your father being a Brit? Or were you born there?

Ep, I posted about that last weekend in the Manifestos. And why aren't you reading the Manifestos? Tsk, tsk.

I wouldn't feel loved if you didn't give me shit, Syc. I've been more or less working again, so I'm not keeping up quite as well as I was...

xoxoxoBruce · 10-19-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elspode

I wouldn't feel loved if you didn't give me shit, Syc. I've been more or less working again, so I'm not keeping up quite as well as I was...

Working...cool. I was afraid you wouldn't be able to get me a nice xmas gift. Seriuosly man, that's good to hear.

10-17-2003, 01:09 PM	#5
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	As Syc noted in another thread, I'm a lazy fuck, so I was wondering if ya'll had noticed in the news anywhere that a St. Louis judge had blocked the implementation of concealed carry in Missouri? (probably one of Syc's more liberal relatives) __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

10-17-2003, 04:03 PM	#10
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I always thought that too, warch. We often speculated the reason there was so much great pot, cheap, in Viet Nam was the commies were subsidizing it. But last night there was some show on the discovery channel or someplace. I had company,so I really wasn't paying attention to their investigation how Shaka Zulu beat the British Army, until they concluded the Zulus had pot with a thc content of something like 25%( ) and that gave them the stamina. Fight, if that's true, I want to know how they could walk??? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

10-18-2003, 08:05 AM	#13
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Guns, pot, alcohol, spray paint or ice cream. There's nothing you can name that somebody won't use irresponsibly. The focus on specific items being a threat to the general public is misdirected. The threat to the general public is the attitude that I'm more important than you are. My pleasure is more important that your health and welfare. I bear no personal responsibity for insult or injury to anyone else while I'm pursuing happiness. Oh...and lawyers. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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10-17-2003, 12:18 PM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I'd say that whether you're going to get shot or not, and moreover whether you're going to be killed or not, is more related to the local culture than the local gun laws. That would be my takeaway from Austin: the presence of hippies overrules gun laws. If someone wants a gun they can build one using cheap raw materials. If someone wants you dead they can blow you up or poison you or knife you or hire someone to kill you. So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippies

10-17-2003, 01:59 PM	#7
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Another gun debate?

10-17-2003, 03:09 PM	#9
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	[/quote]So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippiess [quote] Or remove regulations surrounding Marijuana ownership, concealed and otherwise, and usage. More pot/Less crime. Now there's a study to fund.

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