Collective Responsibility -v- Individual Responsibility.

[Sundae]

I will inconvenience myself to ensure that I put as little as possible into landfill. I call this my educated social conscience. I don't expect thanks and I will not see the benefits, but I suppose your daughter might be glad people like me had icky feelings in 50 years time.

Isn't part of the human make-up the survival of the species? Don't other animals band together for the good of the collective? Yes, it's because it enhances their chance of survival, but I suggest the survival of the species as a whole is also hardwired in social (pack or herd) animals.

Radar - you're fully entitled to your point of view. You're fully entitled to the dog-eat-dog, it's a jungle out there mentality. But when the zombies attack I'll be down the Winchester with my mates. Safety in numbers you know?

Ali, if I understand this correctly, Dana won't benefit by standing as an independent. It's not Labour party line which is the problem - it's power sharing with an opposite political ideology in order to retain some influence. Something that independents are forced to do by their very nature as a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

Dana - I've said it to you before. You're intelligent enough to weight the consequences and the only person you have to sleep with is yourself. I'm sure you'll do what sits best with you.

[Aliantha]

Gosh, well I suppose I could go on about how everyone is equal and stuff, but I think I'll just be happy that you've finally made some concession about possibly caring about your fellow man and what happens to them.

Baby steps.

btw, about your story in your previous post. Do you think the way the party treated you has anything to do with why you feel the way you do about collective responsibility?

[DanaC]

The Libertarian Party does not back candidates. They don't contribute to the campaigns of candidates. They don't even give you the mailing list of the members of the party.

Then, in what sense are they a 'party' ?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Then, in what sense are they a 'party' ?

They have meetings where they follow Roberts Rules of Order, they work together on trying to block bad legislation, they do outreach and information booths, and they vote for libertarian candidates....oh and they ask for donations a lot.

[Radar]

Not at all. The Libertarian Party was built around individualism. This is why the LP is often accused of trying to herd cats. Libertarians all hold individualism very highly and all think they know what's best for the party.

Libertarian is also based on two core beliefs. I have been accused by the Republicans in the party of being a "small tent" libertarian. The truth is I am a big tent libertarian. I just want everyone in the Libertarian tent to actually be a libertarian. In other words, they must subscribe to the core values of the libertarian philosophy.

The 2 core values of libertarianism are...

1) We own ourselves. No other person or group of people regardless of their number has any legitimate claim to our body or the fruits of our labor.

2) The N.A.P. (Sometimes called Z.A.P.) for Non-Aggression Principle or Zero Aggression Principle. This means libertarians are against the INITIATION of non-defensive force, especially for political gain or social engineering. This is true regardless of whether the force is physical, legislative, or comes in the form of threats or coercion.

Unlike other political parties, the L.P. actually has a pledge to join. Well they did for decades. I'm not sure if they do anymore because it made the Republicans feel uncomfortable. They don't want to pledge not to use force or coercion because they support those things. They don't think it's fair that we demand an adherence to principles because they gave up any principles they might have had long ago.

[Undertoad]

Did we ever go over why David Nolan wrote the pledge to read the way it does?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Did we ever go over why David Nolan wrote the pledge to read the way it does?

I don't think we ever discussed that. I actually know David Nolan and he's backed me up when I was attacked by the Republitarians, so that might be fun.

[DanaC]

Unlike other political parties, the L.P. actually has a pledge to join. Well they did for decades. I'm not sure if they do anymore because it made the Republicans feel uncomfortable. They don't want to pledge not to use force or coercion because they support those things. They don't think it's fair that we demand an adherence to principles because they gave up any principles they might have had long ago.

lol. Sectarianism. Gotta love it. The world is truly the same over, we just paint it a little differently from place to place.

Please don't think I am mocking you with that Radar....or at least, if I am mocking you, I am also mocking myself :P

[DanaC]

They have meetings where they follow Roberts Rules of Order, they work together on trying to block bad legislation, they do outreach and information booths, and they vote for libertarian candidates....oh and they ask for donations a lot.

I was going to say, that's not a party thats a pressure group but then you added the bit about donations :P

[DanaC]

Ali, if I understand this correctly, Dana won't benefit by standing as an independent.

True enough. I am not in the party to be a councillor, I am a councillor to further the party's political aims and because I believe in the Labour movement and the place of the Labour Party within that movement.

[Undertoad]

Nolan wrote the pledge to indicate to the feds, and to the joiners, that the organization did not intend to become one of the radical groups at the time, such as the Black Panthers and Weather Underground, bent on carrying out domestic terrorism.

[Radar]

I knew he added the pledge so the feds would know the LP wasn't intent on a violent overthrow of the government, though in my eyes, I would see a violent overthrow of our government as an exercise of our unalienable rights described in the Declaration of Independence and also it wouldn't be the initiation of force, but rather using defensive force against those who are already using force against us.

I don't consider taking over the American government and forcing it to return to the one described in the Constitution by eliminating everything not specifically enumerated to be terrorism. I consider it to be patriotism.

The Black Panthers and the Weather Underground killed innocent people and wanted to dismantle the government without rebuilding it.

The pledge was more than just what David had originally intended though. It became a litmus test for members. It held people to a higher standard and laid out expectations. This way if someone runs as a Libertarian and says we need to kill babies to make soilent green, we can kick them out of the party and say their views don't mesh with ours.

[Undertoad]

I would see a violent overthrow of our government as an exercise of our unalienable rights described in the Declaration of Independence and also it wouldn't be the initiation of force,

So, basically, "original intent" in this context means absolutely nothing to you.

[Radar]

The original intent for the pledge in a political party I don't belong to means less to me than the original intent of our founders when they created the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.

[Undertoad]

So, "we" in your context means "everybody except me".