Sexual misconduct

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... But also, sometimes we're all Billy Bush, laughing along at the horrific guy because we don't know what else to do and we want whoever we're talking to to like us in the moment.

What in the way of sexual misconduct are women laughing along with the horrific woman about; because, they don't know what else to do and they want whoever they're talking to to like them in the moment?

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by sexobon

What in the way of sexual misconduct are women laughing along with the horrific woman about; because, they don't know what else to do and they want whoever they're talking to to like them in the moment?

I've never been in a situation where another woman did the equivalent of telling a rape joke, or otherwise discounting consent -

I think the closest equivalent I can recall is: being in a situation where a co-worker/sometime friend talked about guys she had dated or was interested in, in a worryingly mechanistic way. She used men for what she could get out of them, and knew exactly how desirable she was. I recall being a little uncomfortable but she was older than me. I'd never have felt comfortable saying anything.*




* I have witnessed raucous women on a hen night being way too handsy with bar staff and waiters. I wasn't myself part of any of those groups so I wasn't in the position of having to laugh along.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by DanaC

* I have witnessed raucous women on a hen night being way too handsy with bar staff and waiters.

Former waiter at the bar/restaurant had a table full of 40-50ish yo fairly attractive ladies (cougars). The five of them ordered one of the bar specialties, the Cougar Tea. My boy brought out the drinks and said to them "Five Cougar Teas, I hope the irony here isn't lost on you ladies tonight.", with a big smile as he sat the drinks on the table.

He told me "The entire rest of the night was rewr." and made a pawing/clawing motion w/his hands. They were all over the guy. He said later on, "Y'know, that might could have been the best night of my life".

Ya had to see the presentation and know the guy to get just how funny that story actually is.

[Clodfobble]

The women often have to laugh along with horrific men, because for them the interaction has a threatening overtone, and humor is often the fastest way out of a situation. I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.

[DanaC]

I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.

Yup

[sexobon]

That doesn't address the gist of my question. What in the way of sexual misconduct has women laughing along with another woman because she makes them feel threatened; or, intimidated and they want to gain her acceptance?

Is there no sexual misconduct by women that does that?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Yup

You hot babes are always at risk.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sexobon

That doesn't address the gist of my question. What in the way of sexual misconduct has women laughing along with another woman because she makes them feel threatened; or, intimidated and they want to gain her acceptance?

Is there no sexual misconduct by women that does that?

Statistically, no. The closest analogy would be an adult woman making lewd comments about an underage male--perhaps a high school student being preyed on by his teacher, for example--but that shit just doesn't happen, because other women would immediately freak out at any woman who said that, and likely put in a tip to the cops. The "good" women have proven that they will speak up and be proactive, you see, not simply refrain from molesting teens themselves, thus the behavior is perhaps less rampant than it would be if all us moms got together for coffee and leered at the high school kid busing our table and talked about how we were gonna ride that underdeveloped dick all night.

[limey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Statistically, no. The closest analogy would be an adult woman making lewd comments about an underage male--perhaps a high school student being preyed on by his teacher, for example--but that shit just doesn't happen, because other women would immediately freak out at any woman who said that, and likely put in a tip to the cops ...

Well now, I remember a male boss of mine telling me that when he was a teenager on a summer job at a chicken processing plant where all the factory employees were women, he got heckled, cat-called, harassed, felt threatened by the floor manager, and all the women were just cheering her on. He told me this in the context of harassment training we were undergoing, but I can certainly believe it to be true, and not to be an isolated incident.



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[xoxoxoBruce]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Usually men have the power, which is the only reason men exercise it more frequently.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Usually men have the power, which is the only reason men exercise it more frequently.

I think that nails it.

[Undertoad]

"but that shit just doesn't happen, because other women would immediately freak out at any woman who said that"

That's all fine, and if our brains were identical response to the different hormones our bodies create were identical, we'd be down for that approach too.

But they aren't, so what if the "locker room talk" is a necessary part of getting those feelings figured out? What ARE we going to do with these feelings if we can't talk about them?

The feelings are quite different, despite Dana's objection and here is the crux of our differences. For 100,000 years, with no culture to assist, it kept the species thriving under many different conditions, so it is one of the most powerful things we know.

So please feel free to translate:

"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."

to:

"Guys, that waitress over there? I feel a remarkable, mostly inexplicable but unattainable attraction to her, that I cannot possibly just ignore. I would never actually act upon this, and must assume she would not permit it, as a default condition. That is why I must express this in the fiercest way possible, so that it indicates how crazy my own brain is driving me right now. Do you agree because I would like to know I'm not alone in this feeling."

Also you women may not have noticed a different kind of harassment preventative male chatter that happens routinely. It, too, is along the lines of "if you see something, say something" and it goes like this:

"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."

I know there will be objections to the word "my" and etc. so I'll note it doesn't have to be "my" and it doesn't have to be "woman"... "girlfriend" "boyfriend" "daughter" "wife" "friend" or it often just goes unsaid.

[Clodfobble]

"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."

Maybe that's where we went off the evolutionary track--we became a polite society first, where men didn't break cues over each other's heads, and then the bad apples became more confident, because they knew no man would make that threat anymore, let alone actually follow through with it? I'm not saying it's a better way to be, I'm just noting that no man was, or even is now, punching Weinstein in the face.

"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."

I totally buy the evolutionary nature of this stuff. But isn't the most effective way to temper those feelings for a man to actually be getting laid on a regular basis? And isn't part of the thing that keeps some men from getting laid on a regular basis their poor socialization with regards to women?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Maybe that's where we went off the evolutionary track--we became a polite society first, where men didn't break cues over each other's heads

We... we don't?

There is a lack of awareness of this issue, so I am asking any of my fellow guys in the thread, who have been assaulted, or at least physically harassed to the point of being truly frightened, to please use the hashtag #MeAlso in your messages.

#MeAlso

(Me: assaulted several times. Worst assault required plastic surgery. Once was by a teacher in a full classroom. I've faced being beaten by school officials of course, in the north of England and the redneck zone of America. I've run in fear a handful of times. A friend was assaulted two years ago, and another friend threatened a pool cue solid body guitar assault eight years ago. I'm guessing my experience was average.)

I'm just noting that no man was, or even is now, punching Weinstein in the face.

Part of his calculation was putting himself in a place where he couldn't be assaulted. Otherwise he would have been; every man knows this. Also, we don't know that he wasn't punched. I imagine he probably was.

Men relentlessly keep quiet about their assaults out of shame.

#MeAlso

But isn't the most effective way to temper those feelings for a man to actually be getting laid on a regular basis? And isn't part of the thing that keeps some men from getting laid on a regular basis their poor socialization with regards to women?

'Cept those sexually aggressive guys often wind up socialized specifically for sexual pursuit (and are terrible people in real life, narcissist pricks etc). The ones who are, get laid more regularly than the guys with girlfriends -- we know, we did the math or at least had the math explained to us.

OMG 1 in 200 men is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. That was a different time. But still, 1 in 200! Dang!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Maybe that's where we went off the evolutionary track--we became a polite society first, where men didn't break cues over each other's heads...

Not in my world, I've been seriously threatened with physical violence and weapons... and have threatened.