NO MORE REDSKINS

[DanaC]

I don't particularly think you should feel shame for what your forebears did. I don't feel shame for the appalling things my forebears did to various native populations around the globe.

But I think you owe a little sensitivity. You (and I) are living with the fruits of those actions. Your country was built on the suffering and loss of the native population of that land, as well as the kidnapped and displaced population of slaves. Not so very long ago. You are, after all, a very young nation.

You remember the good stuff. You remember the things that make you proud - you venerate the founding fathers and the constitution they wrote. Yet you expect the descendants of those who fell in the wake of that nation building to just let their memories, their history fade by the wayside.

[sexobon]

So you believe in punishing the children for the sin of the fathers, to the third and fourth generation perhaps?

Does that make you feel better?

[DanaC]

Wtf are you talking about? In what way have I suggested anybody be punished?

We're talking about not using the name 'redskins' for a football team. If you consider that 'punishing the children for the sin of the fathers, to the third and fourth generation', then your sense of cultural entitlement is beyond ridiculous.

The third and fourth generations of the native Americans are still living with the fallout of your great grandparents' actions but you can't bear the idea of not being allowed to use the word redskins.

Ffs.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Wtf are you talking about? In what way have I suggested anybody be punished? ...

... The third and fourth generations of the native Americans are still living with the fallout of your great grandparents' actions but you can't bear the idea of not being allowed to use the word redskins. ...

You have no knowledge whatsoever about whether or not my great grandparents ever resided in this country; yet, you would curtail my freedom of expression over a mere assumption on your part.

Congratulations, you just qualified as a political correctness Nazi.

[DanaC]

I'm not talking about your great grandparents specifically I'm talking about that generation of Americans - in much the same way I referred to 'you' being a young country.

Whatever man. This is fuck all to do with your freedom of expression. Nobody made word red skin illegal.

[sexobon]

Well, since you put it that way, you've sweet talked me into remaining your sexobon buddy.

[DanaC]

ha! Then all is well with the world :p

[Aliantha]

When it comes down to it, most of us can make almost anything an insult to someone. For instance, some people feel insulted/annoyed when someone suggest they should have a blessed day. I get the very valid points everyone has made here, but in the end it comes down to treating others how you'd like to be treated yourself.

If you don't care if others refer to you as 'that fucking arsehole', then by all means go ahead and call everyone you meet a fucking arsehole. You might find you end up with no friends after a while though.

That's just my thoughts anyway.

[glatt]

When the rest of the country thinks about Washington DC, just about the last image to pop into their heads is that of the Native American Indian. It's a really stupid team name for that reason alone. Call them the politicians, or beaurocrats, or blowhards. We have the Capitals hockey team. We used to have the Senators. We even had the Bullets, which was accurate at the time. The team name should reflect the city culture. This area has virtually nothing to do with Indians when compared to other US cities. Plus, it's needlessly offensive.

[DanaC]

[lumberjim]

that guy looks just like classicman

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by glatt

When the rest of the country thinks about Washington DC, just about the last image to pop into their heads is that of the Native American Indian. It's a really stupid team name for that reason alone. ... This area has virtually nothing to do with Indians when compared to other US cities.

I'm sure no one has ever accused you of being a man of vision, of getting the big picture of the relationship of past to present to future. Teams weren't always named after city associated images, the Redskins didn't originate in Washington, DC, and there's a demonstrable chain of events linking the team name to honorable if not noble origins.

Tamanend or Tammany or Tammamend, the "affable",[1] (c. 1625–c. 1701) was a chief of one of the clans that made up the Lenni-Lenape nation in the Delaware Valley at the time Philadelphia was established. Tamanend is best known as a lover of peace and friendship who played a prominent role in the establishment of peaceful relations among the Native American tribes and the English settlers who established Pennsylvania, led by William Penn.

UNDER THE NAME "TAMMANY", he was a popular figure in America, especially in Philadelphia. Referred to as "Patron Saint of America", he became an emblem of peace and amity. A Tammany society is an annual Tammany festival that was founded in Philadelphia. Tammany societies elsewhere were established, using his name to stand for the peaceful politics of negotiation.

Tammany Hall, also known as the Society of St. Tammany, the Sons of St. Tammany[/url], or the Columbian Order, was a New York City political organization founded in 1786 and incorporated on May 12, 1789, as the Tammany Society. It was the Democratic Party political machine that played a major role in controlling New York City and New York State politics and helping immigrants, ...

The Tammany Society was named for Tamanend, a Native American leader of the Lenape, and emerged as the center for Democratic-Republican Party politics in the city in the early 19th century. The "Hall" serving as the Society's headquarters was built in 1868 on East 14th Street, marking an era when Tammany Hall became the city affiliate of the Democratic Party, controlling most of the New York City elections afterwards. ...

The Atlanta Braves, a current Major League Baseball franchise, originated in Boston ... The Cincinnati Red Stockings, established in 1869 as the first openly all-professional baseball team, voted to dissolve after the 1870 season. Player-manager Harry Wright then went to Boston, Massachusetts at the invitation of Boston Red Stockings founder Ivers Whitney Adams, with brother George and two other Cincinnati players, to form the nucleus of the Boston Red Stockings, ... The original Boston Red Stockings team and its successors can lay claim to being the oldest continuously playing team in American professional sports.[1] ... Boston came to be called the Beaneaters in 1883, WHILE RETAINING RED AS THEIR TEAM COLOR. ...

Nickname changes to the Doves in 1907 and the Rustlers in 1911 did nothing to change the National League club's luck. The team became the Braves for the first time in 1912. THEIR OWNER, JAMES GAFFNEY, WAS A MEMBER OF NEW YORK CITY'S POLITICAL MACHINE, TAMMANY HALL, WHICH USED AN INDIAN CHIEF AS THEIR SYMBOL. ...

The Washington Redskins are a professional American football team located in the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area. ... THE TEAM ORIGINATED AS THE BOSTON BRAVES, based in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1932, under the ownership of George Preston Marshall. At the time the team played in Braves Field, home of the Boston Braves baseball team. THE FOLLOWING YEAR THE CLUB MOVED TO FENWAY PARK, HOME OF THE BOSTON RED SOCKS, WHEREUPON THE OWNERS CHANGED THE TEAM'S NAME TO THE BOSTON REDSKINS. THE REDSKINS RELOCATED TO WASHINGTON, D.C. IN 1937. ...

When you advocate not using the name Redskins, you're advocating dropping the rich heritage of a Native American of a previous generation, one once called the Patron Saint of America, to satiate the whining of the current generation sponging off that heritage with attention whoring political correctness abuses in a futile grasp at control: Native American Heritage Cannibalism.

[DanaC]

So - they admired the native Americans and appropriated a bunch of their customs and notable figures for their political club. It was a bit of a thing at the time.

The actual native Americans weren't involved though, were they? Tamanend wasn't involved, was he?

This isn't about 'dropping the rich heritage of a Native American of a previous generation'. It's about not using the name red skins. None of us know what Tamanend would have thought about the name redskins. My guess is he wouldn't see it as a compliment.

[DanaC]

It's like an English political group admiring Gandhi, and over the years they end up giving the nickname 'the pakis' to a football club and then insisting that has something to do with Gandhi.

[lumberjim]

I hope they do have to change the name. Not because of any of the reasons stated here, though.

I just fucking hate that team. Always have.