08/07/02: Bitch.

[Nic Name]

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/expand/wfc/index.html

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Nic Name
It's a common ritual among young immature males to attack the masculinity of their male peer group, often in jest, as a way of asserting their own masculinity to the group, especially when there could be some uncertainty or doubt.

Often, to verbalize derisive epithets toward friendly targets is a safe way of asserting one's masculinity, lest there be any doubt. Mature heterosexual males seldom exhibit this behavior, which is common among immature teenage boys.

Nic, don't ya hate it when you try to bait someone and they just don't bite?

[juju]

Originally posted by Xugumad

Universality of meaning results in words' intrinsic nature. You can sit there all day and claim that 'nigger' means a different thing to black rappers than it does to middle-class white suburbanites, but its core value is that of an insulting term ascribed to black people.

Re-read the bit in my last message about people attaching meaning to words, and in what context that was written; please don't quote out of context.

I went over this again, and I don't think I quoted you out of context. I think that the above text is what this is all about. You seem to be saying that society as a whole grants meaning to words, and i'm saying that individuals give meanings to words.

Now, it's ideal that we all give the same meanings to our words. If we didn't all use the same dictionary, then there would be huge miscommunications between people. I'm saying that does happen, though.

Anyway, I agree with Dave that we'll have to agree to disagree. All we seem to be doing is reiterating our points over and over again. :)

[juju]

Originally posted by Nic Name
It's pointless to debate with people who insist that their words have unique and special meanings known only to themselves, which meanings may differ from the meanings of those communications generally understood by the society in which they try desperately to be understood.

dhamsaic argues that his words mean what he intends them to mean, regardless of what those words are understood to mean by others in this society. This argument shows a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of language as a communications medium. Otherwise, there would be no need for a common language, everyone being content that he knows what he's talking about, and that's all that matters, while everyone else is aware that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I agree that giving words different meanings causes all kinds of chaos and miscommunication. Unfortunately, people do it anyway. I'm not saying it's a good thing.. just that it happens, and that people should be aware of this so that we can all communicate better.

[juju]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
My brothers and I always called each other "fag" when we were little. I had no earthly clue what it meant at first; I just heard it used once and thought it was a pretty cool-sounding insult.

It's interesting. According to their line of reasoning, even though you had no idea what a homosexual was, by using the word 'fag', you already had an opinion about them! It's pretty cool to hate a group you've never heard of before.

[Nic Name]

Be an informed informer ... read The Citizens' Informer.

[juju]

Nic, I will never click on any of your links.

[Nic Name]

Why? Did some words in that link offend you?

Originally posted by juju

Words do not have 'intrinsic' meaning. They are phonemes, and they only have the meaning that you personally ascribe to them.

I'm sure the Council of Conservative Citizens don't mean nothin' by it. They're jus' been patriotic Amercuns.

As for me, I'm certainly not racist, bigoted or homophobic so if you can't take a joke, just ...

Surely everyone should follow the example of others and just use whatever words they like, just kidding around, without regard to the impact they have on others.

I think I've made my point.

I clicked it and it was blocked by the SAICnet filter's Hate category. Yay!

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
I think the difference here is that when I'm with people I know and I say those words (or they say them to me), the meaning is understood.. Coming back to that, words are just words. They are combinations of letters.... I only use my choice phrases in my varous circles of friends.

Anyway, I think this is pretty much a dead topic as far as I'm concerned. We can just agree to disagree, because Maggie & Xug aren't going to see any validity to my argument and whatever they say isn't going to change the fact that what I'm doing, with my friends, isn't hurting anyone else.

I've been essentially offline for a few days, so I'll add one last riposte, in the form of several posts since I'm quoteing more than one poster.

Dham, your opinion that "I'm not hurting anyone else" is indeed an opinion, not a fact, and (once again), calling it one doesn't make it so. If you really believe "words are just words", I think you need to read some Orwell. Or maybe read it again.

I *hear* your argument, but "words are just words" and "what I say doesn't matter except to those who hear my words" strike me as incredibly naive views -- so much so that when I hear them comming from someone like yourself who is so sophisticated in most other ways that I'm not sure what to think . We can close the topic for now; wouldn't want to trouble your rationalizations with any further cognitive dissonance.

Words shape thought as much as thought shapes words--sometimes more. What you say to your friends in private has implications far beyond the instant conversation.

edits for typos

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by juju
It's interesting. According to their line of reasoning, even though you had no idea what a homosexual was, by using the word 'fag', you already had an opinion about them! It's pretty cool to hate a group you've never heard of before.

Oh, but "it's just words".

I have to agree that it's pretty amazing to convey to a child the value that he's supposed to hate a group of people even before he knows who they are. This has the advantage of precluding the danger that he might form his own opinion based on something as trivial or unreliable as personal expereince. Prejudice is just such a marvelous mechanism for sharing the accumulated wisdom of the group.

Originally posted by MaggieL
What you say to your friends in private has implications far beyond the instant conversation.

I know, which is why I consider it important to be responsible with what I say. You would not, for example, hear me speaking anything like that to impressionable minds. I understand (and agree with!) most of what you're saying; all I'm saying is that it does not fit the position that I am currently in. I don't at all mind differing opinions, I simply get tired of re-iterating. But it occurs to me that you probably don't understand exactly how it goes on here, and that is probably my fault as I have explained it poorly.

Some of my better friends growing up were African American. I can't say that I still keep in touch with those people, but at that young age, I was taught tolerance, both by my parents being tolerant and by being neighbors with "colored" people (as my grandmother would refer to them). I'd hang out with Kedrick and play Atari and not think anything of it - he's just a little darker than me. Big deal.

The same is true of my sister, of course - though I don't think she played much Atari. Anyway, she grew up in the same environment and tolerance was something that just was. There were no words like "nigger" or "fag" in our vocabulary - they had no meaning to us.

When we moved in with some cretins that were our cousins (long long long story), we picked up these words. Dad had told me that "nigger" was a bad word and I shouldn't say it; until about a year ago, I couldn't even utter the word. "Fag", on the other hand, was picked up from my foul cousin. I didn't know what it meant - I just knew that it sounded kinda funny. When I found out what it meant, I was pretty opposed to its usage - my sister called me "fag" one day and I did all I could to get her to stop using it (including tattling - which was pretty ineffective). Eventually, we both came to know many gays online (I will use "gays" because it sounds so much less retarded than "homosexuals", which seems to have grown into an insult nowadays). Thus was born a true tolerance (neigh, acceptance) of gays. Like I said, one of my very best friends is a lesbian. One of Jen's friends is a lesbian too. I seriously don't think I could care less about the sexuality of my friends. It just doesn't even register as important. Anyway, we were never intolerant before, but we hadn't really had a chance to make up an opinion. Now we had.

So when I'm with my sister, who I know understands how I mean what I say (we don't even talk in full sentences - a few words and the other can complete it mentally), I use whatever word I want. One time we were making up "Racist Movie Titles" and I was coming up with stuff like "Ajapalypse Now" and "Nigley Down Under" - we were laughing our asses off. She knows that I have nothing against those of Japanese origin, nor do I secretly resent African Americans. The titles just sounded funny, and that's why they were said. I wasn't legitimizing the use of those words, because she understood what the whole thing was about. I'd never use racist or sexist slurs to seriouly describe anyone, though I will jokingly use them around people who understand from time to time.

Another case: Andrea. Andrea is half Chinese, half American - or, as I like to say, "Half Chinese, Half Redneck". She knows that I love her, so I don't have to worry about calling her "slitty-eyed" (she laughs at that) or saying I can't read a chinese package of Smints because "it's written in Chink!" It's funny because we understand that there's no real racist sentiment there. If I didn't like Chinese people, one of my very best friends of over six years (realize that's over 1/4 my life) wouldn't be half Chinese. I'd have some Aryan-ideal friend instead.

Now... one time my dad was relating a story - he and his brother were in a movie theater or something in Maine and he realized that the people there thought they were "fags" - his word. I got that awful feeling in your stomach that you get when a relationship ends or someone hurts you a lot. I couldn't believe my Dad just said that. I know he didn't mean any harm by it, but it deeply offended me that someone would use that word seriously.

Did he get it from friends joking? Did he get it from intolerant friends? I don't know... but know that I would never want to be responsible for someone using that word in a serious manner - and that is why I'm always careful when using it. Like I said, I use "fag" mostly on my sister or Paul - because they understand that to me, it doesn't mean "homosexual male", never has and never will. I say "nigger" (when I'm not trying to make a point here on the Cellar) only around people that understand that to me, it doesn't mean "person of African origin", never has and never will. I understand that it means that to some people, but not to me. I also understand that I have the power to mold more impressionable people, and I have the responsibility not to do so with hateful language. I also understand that I could unlock a sort of "unawakened" hate in people if I used such words around people that didn't understand how I was using them and that I didn't mean anything negative. Someone might hear it and go "oh, it's cool, he's down with me hating niggers" and now I'm responsible for one more mislead person thinking it's acceptable to hate others based upon something they can't control. I understand all that, and I'm careful not to be a cause of it.

I really do understand what you're saying, and I really do agree with it. I'm not even saying it doesn't apply to me - it does. But I've engineered myself a situation where I can speak freely with a select few and not worry about that. I hope that this post has mostly clarified that.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

You would not, for example, hear me speaking anything like that to impressionable minds.

All minds are impressionable. And they're not divided into neat little compartments by impervious walls.

I understand (and agree with!) most of what you're saying; all I'm saying is that it does not fit the position that I am currently in...
Some of my better friends growing up were African American. I can't say that I still keep in touch with those people...
Like I said, I use "fag" mostly on my sister or Paul - because they understand that to me, it doesn't mean "homosexual male", never has and never will.

You can't honestly claim to have laundered the word of that meaning, either in your friend's minds or your own. Examine what you say you mean by that word (that special personal meaning that has nothing to do with "homosexual male"), and then why you use that word to express that meaning. "It sounds funny" isn't a complete explanation, it shirks off *why* you think that word "sounds funny", and the dissonance behind it that provokes you to laughter.

I really do understand what you're saying, and I really do agree with it. I'm not even saying it doesn't apply to me - it does. But I've engineered myself a situation where I can speak freely with a select few and not worry about that.

"I'm not saying it doesn't apply to me...execpt in this little pocket of immunity I've created for myself." Well, congratulations on yout true tolerance and self-percieved immunity. But I think you're kidding yourself. Your "some of my best friends" speech fails to convince, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Gay people themselves aren't immune from homophobia; internalized homophobia is one of the biggest emotional challenges facing many queer folk today. If they struggle with it, how can you claim to be free of it just because you're wearing a "some of my best friends.." button?

Originally posted by MaggieL
If they struggle with it, how can you claim to be free of it just because you're wearing a "some of my best friends.." button?

If I've ever seen flawed reasoning, that's it. Yes, because it's true of someone else, it must be true of me. Of course. Just like the black women that only date white men because they "hate niggers". I must also be a racist, because if some black people don't like black people, how can I like black people?

I'm not saying "some of my best friends". I'm saying one of my very closest friends. I'm not trying to hide behind some stupid cliché. I'm using it as an example - if I harbor strong resentment against homosexuals (as evidenced by my usage of the word "fag"), how does one explain my being good friends with one? And I'm not talking some cheap undervalued "good friends" BS that kids use all the time. I'm talking "you've been an integral part of my life for over six years and I love you and I'd die for you and if you ever need me to come pick you up at 3 in the morning because you're locked out of your car, well, it might be a 4 hour drive but I'll be there" good friends.

The truth is, I seriously don't see sexuality when I look at a person. I don't see color. I don't care. It's not at the bottom of my list of "things that matter in a person" - it's not even on the list. I don't give a shit! I don't care if you're fat, ugly, pale, brown, gay, short, disabled... I just don't care. All I'm into as far as friends go is their mind. I don't see the body as a part of a person - I see it as a tool for moving the brain around and protecting it and getting things done. Why? I dunno. Probably because I've been overweight most of my life and I've come to realize, through people not liking me because I'm a pudgy bastard, that the body doesn't really matter. Truly does not matter. It's the mind that counts. Obviously I am physically attracted to some things and not to others, but in platonic relationships, physicality is not a factor. I've seen your pictures, Maggie. I think you're ugly. Guess what? I don't give a shit! I don't care that you used to be a man and now you're not. It simply does not matter to me, and it doesn't affect my opinion of you. I wouldn't like you more if you were a hot 30-something housewife and I don't like you less 'cause you're not. Your mind is all that I am interested in. I like you at times and I dislike you at others, and any feelings I have about you are a direct result of what you say, not what you look like or who you fuck. The same is true of everyone else. My sister needs to lose some weight. So does Andrea. I don't care. I just don't care.

I'm not sure if I can make it any more clear for you. You are simply not qualified to judge whether or not a person's color or sexuality matter to me. I am quick to admit my own flaws and have been very introspective my entire life - all of my friends will tell you this. I am not perfect and I do not have all the answers, but I have spent more time with myself than you have and, contrary to what Nic might tell you, I know myself better than you do. I know what matters to me in other people and I know what doesn't. Wanna know what I hate? Nutball religious wackos. Yeah. I'm guilty as charged for giving a shit about a person's religion, but I couldn't give a fuck less about sexuality or race. And no matter what you say, dem's the facts.

[ Edit - added something I thought I had typed but obviously didn't. ]

[juju]

I don't think we'll ever agree on this. But it has been really interesting talking about it.

I see this as a wake-up call to all those who like to trash-talk: Be careful who you do it around. Some people have been hurt too badly in the past and will never understand that you didn't mean anything.