Elbows on the table

[morethanpretty]

My parents were too busy for dinner etiquette. I know my manners (I think) but we almost always ate in front of the TV in the living room since we were old enough to be trusted not to make a huge mess. Usually food was set out on the kitchen counter and it was serve yourself. Cleaning up after was almost always a fight. Napkin in my lap I almost never do, for some reason I just don't like it. The knife and fork thing is something else I didn't pick up. We were expected to eat all of our veggies, or most of them atleast, but if we didn't finish our food that was fine. I think its a horrible thing to be taught to finish your plate, you should stop when you're no longer hungry, if you eat until you're "full" thats actually overeating I've heard. Lack of drinking is also an odd habit we had at meals, we just didn't make sure to have a beverage at the table. When we ate with a friend's family, the mom made us kids drink milk with our dinner which is disgusting to me.

[jinx]

When I was very little I guess my parents tried the "eat everything" form of torture on me. When I was 4 or 5 I was waiting them out one night at dinner and managed to fall asleep and fall from my chair onto the hardwood floor. Several days later my mom decided to take me to the doctor, then for x-rays, then to have my arm put in a sling because my clavicle was broken.

From then on I've been in control of my own food intake and haven't struggled with my weight like so many others I've known whose parents decided they knew how much food someone else needed at any given moment.

[DanaC]

We didn't eat at table every day. Some evenings we would. More often we would eat off our laps in the tv room (we had two of what I would now call living rooms: the telly room and the sitting room). We probably ate at the table, as a family, twice a week. Partly that's cause Dad was a nightworker.

My favourite kind of meal was me, Mum and Our Kid, all sat watching one of our regular programmes, munching on sandwiches and homemade cheese&onion pie, scones and fruit cocktail. Or, sometimes me and Martin would cook (my contribution being minimal). The first time I used chop sticks was when Our Kid cooked a stir fry. lol, he had a karate style dressing gown, which he wore. Me and mum just wore satiny gowns and we all sat on the floor eating with chopsticks.* I found that very exciting :P

[* No idea why we were sitting on the floor. Probably merging Chinese and Indian lol).

[Aliantha]

I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting kids to eat everything on their plate. As a parent, you know how much they need to have and (if you've got any brains) you serve that quantity.

Too much food gets wasted by people who think it's ok to leave food on their plate. What particularly shits me are the people who serve themselves and still leave food on the plate.

Our western affluent society is far to greedy and thoughtless. If you can't eat it all, don't take it.

[morethanpretty]

How do you really know how much they need? They need the amount they eat, its not like they should get a big desert after. (Deserts are only reserved for special occasion in my family.) If you always make them eat everything on their plate then you're forcing them to eat food they don't necessarily want/need. My ex grew up with the "eat everything on your plate" rule and it caused a lot of problems because he would literally be sick after a dinner out. I agree that people often have eyes larger than their stomachs and sometimes even I over estimate myself. But that doesn't mean they should have to add another sin to that and over eat. As a parent you should know, two wrongs don't make a right. The food ends up as waste whether they eat it not, doesn't go to the poor starving children of the world.

[Sundae]

I agree with Ali, although I think Jinx and More Than are saying something smiliar - parents should know their children well enough to serve them the right size portions. I think it's far worse to scrape away good food and then indulge the children later with snacks. I'm not saying anyone here does that - but I've certainly seen it. Specifically in the house of parents who claimed their daughter hardly had any appetite. Three forkfuls of pasta and she was done. Down from the table and off to watch tv. But she knew she could get crisps by asking later in the evening. And two biscuits with a glass of milk. And she was allowed to take another two biscuits up to bed so that if she woke up early, she could eat them while watching cartoons. Four biscuits and a packet of crisps is another meal for a 7 year old - and nowhere near as well balanced as the one that went in the bin.

Re weight and eating problems - that just doesn't ring true in my ears. My sister, my brother and I grew up in the same house, and although the rules were relaxed for my brother they still included finishing everything on the plate. Within reason I have to add - the odd mouthful was not an issue. My sis has never struggled with her weight, never got fat, never had anything other than a healthy relationship with food. My brother grew out of being faddy and although occasionally he puts on some weight, he always exercises it off - the weight gain tends to be when he isn't playing football or cycling. Me? I over-indulge. In everything. I am an all or nothing person. It's led to obesity and probably is a factor in my depression. I don't believe for one second it's because me parents made me finish my dinner.

Thing is, I'm sure there are as many different ways of parenting as there are people. But I also agree with Ali that to waste food today is as wrong as it ever has been. Forcing children to eat it does not help anyone. Having the sense to only buy and cook what your family needs is a far better option.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I think it's far worse to scrape away good food and then indulge the children later with snacks. I'm not saying anyone here does that - but I've certainly seen it.

Yeah, but this is a separate issue.
Leftovers can be wrapped and re-served, this is also a separate issue. I'm only talking about the idea of being forced to eat all the food someone else put on a plate.

Re weight and eating problems - that just doesn't ring true in my ears.

Well I certainly can't take credit for coming up with this theory... but I've read about it countless times. A quick googling of "clean your plate" and obesity...

NYT article

Researchers have found that the most important factor in the amount children eat is the amount put in front of them. The more they see, the more they eat.

Putting food in bowls in the center of the table and letting children take their own food may be the best approach to prevent overeating, he said.

Alternative Advice to "Clean you plate"

For centuries parents have been telling their children to clean their plates of food. But is that the best thing to teach your children? A study from Columbia University says "No."

"Clean your plate" might have made sense in a time when food was scarce or the next meal was uncertain. Nowadays, there's little risk of that in America, yet we continue that old training, suppressing healthy instincts.

Research shows babies who are breast fed rather than bottle fed are much less likely to become overweight later. Experts think that's because they learn to stop from their body's own signals, whereas a bottle-fed baby learns to eat until the bottle's empty, even if they're already full.

And old-fashioned dinnertime policies like "clean your plate" teach the same thing.

[DanaC]

My dad used to try that 'eat everything on your plate' bollox. Hateful. Just led to major rows and tears. Poor Dad. He eventually gave up on that kind of nonsense. I remember one major row over a plate of curry. He actually tried the 'starving children in Africa would be grateful for the food' tactic. I said, in all seriousness "well, then send it to them."

Mum's tactics were different. She'd say well, just eat half. Then when I'd eaten half she'd say....oh come on just one more bite. Eventually we'd have reached a compromise position of throwing some away but not all:P If I really, really, stuck to my guns then she'd know I absolutely was not hungry, or really hated the taste. The food would be thrown away, no problem, but there would be no crisps or biscuits later. If I was very hungry later, I'd get a sandwich and a lecture on not leaving food.

Mum's attitude was, why make food into a major issue? Why not trust us to decide how hungry we were?

My brother and his wife have a similarly relaxed attitude to food with the girls. Amelia went through a brief phase of being awkward but she soon got over that. Both of them have a very sensible approach to nutrition. Amelia decided at age 9 that she wanted to be a vegetarian and has stuck to it ever since (she's now 14). Both of them enjoy fast food and sweets but not to excess. They both will generally try whatever you give them but will not be pushed into eating something they don't want.

[Cicero]

I still want an answer as to why my elbows should not randomly rest on a table.

It's not like I lay my arms down or anything...but why not use the elbow to lean into a conversation you are having with the person opposite you? Especially if no one is sitting next to you.

[BrianR]

In OUR house, manners were enforced. No elbows on the table, napkin in the lap (if linen only), grace before meals etc. Only one other rule was enforced... you could not eat TOO FAST. If I were to finish my meal in what was perceived as too little a time period, I would be made to do Oink Oinks... essentially crawling on my hands and knees yelling "Oink Oink!". I carry this grudge until this day.

[Cicero]

What? They made you act like a pig? You have to be kidding me? Were they kidding? What?

[BrianR]

Originally Posted by Cicero

What? They made you act like a pig? You have to be kidding me? Were they kidding? What?

Nope. To this day I consciously moderate my eating speed.

Of course, I should have had fun with it, but I was too young and my weird sense of humour had not yet fully developed.

[Aliantha]

I remember one major row over a plate of curry. He actually tried the 'starving children in Africa would be grateful for the food' tactic. I said, in all seriousness "well, then send it to them."

I think most kids have used this line at one time or another. I know I did. And to me now as an adult, it's not about sending a plate of curry to Africa or south America or Asia. It's about being aware of how lucky we are in every little thing we do and have and take for granted. Something so simple as a plate of food which maybe we don't like the taste of, but shit there's a lot of people in the world who don't even have that in the evening to be thankful for.

This is the message I try to get through to my kids. To pass on to them as my parents did to me. To have a social conscience and not be greedy. To take just as much as I need and no more. Be thankful I could come back for seconds if I wanted to, and the same if I'm serving out dinner for them. Give them as much as they need and no more. I can't believe a parent worth half their salt doesn't know how much their child will eat in a sitting in order to be full and healthy.

[morethanpretty]

Sometimes I find myself leaning on the table, but stop after I notice. Usually the tables are too tall for me to put my elbow on unconsciously anyway. At home it doesn't matter to me, I'm usually eating alone or with the roomie sitting on the couch, leaning over the coffee table. Not much different from my parent's, except they have TV trays. I guess I would find it rude for someone to be eating with their elbows on the table, but either I've never noticed it or I only eat with very well mannered people. "Smacking" or chewing with your mouth open is gross and noisy. My sister used to accuse me of it all time, even to the point of making me cry. What would happen: I would take a bite that was a bit too big for my mouth, and that combined would cause the need for me to slightly open my mouth once or twice while adjusting the food. No one else would even notice and she would flip out. Also according to her I made a lot of noise in just my regular chewing. Again, no one else has ever mentioned it. I do have a problem with eating and talking because I often say something whenever it pops into my head. So something will occur to me, and I'll forget I have food in my mouth when I voice it. I hate that I do that.

Thank you, Jinx, for putting such thought into your post about the "eating everything on your plate" debate, now I don't have to.
I don't think a child should be indulged with snacks later, and especially unhealthy ones. That happened with a cousin and she has severe weight problems. Just that if they don't want to eat it all then, than they shouldn't have too. Appetites aren't always consistent from day to day and although I'm not saying the parents are putting an unreasonable amount on the plate, its still a guess as to how much the kid needs. In that case you should listen when they want to stop, and if they're hungry and want more later they can have the leftover. Not snacks or dessert. Ali, I'm glad you're working instilling your children with a thankfulness for their privileges, and I'm sure it will pay off. I was the snotty little kids who when my mom told me,"You could have a much worse mom than I am." I'd reply, "Yeah, but I could also have a much better one."

[classicman]

Lotta parents out there that aren't, as you put it, worth half their salt.