The Dem You Tube Debate - Page 4

spudcon · 08-08-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The Kurds may have done that but they are not in the middle of the war. It is much harder if not impossible for the middle of Iraq to become stabilized by themselves because there is so much fighting from each side and there are more than two sides. The more I hear about it the more it looks like it may turn into a chaotic anarchical state like Somalia is today.

Assuming that everyone's idea about Iraq is coming from 60 minutes or any other network news source, you may be right. But I've had my fill of the lies, bias, and forgeries the liberal media has brainwashed younger people with for years. I get my facts from people actually defending our country in Iraq, not some rich elitist pinheads, reporting what others are reporting from a safe hotel somewhere. They hate Bush, so they sell out our troops to try to get him. The fact about Bush and the war is, like Clinton, he was elected and re-elected, by voters, and journalists hate that.

piercehawkeye45 · 08-08-2007, 08:49 PM

Can you give your account on what the situation is like in Iraq then?

I try to get my sources from experts on Iraq or from Iraqis themselves and I realize that this only a small part of the whole scenario. My official position on Iraq as of now is that I have no idea what we should do. I support neither party because both parties are making the same mistakes as Bush by basing their decisions on assumptions.

From what I have read from numerous sources is that if we pull out, Iraq will become a chaotic anarchical state much like Somalia. Also, I haven't seen that we have had much progress in Iraq and I have huge doubts on whether that will change.

The thing that scares me is that the people of Iraq do not trust the government and the police and I do not know if this view is isolated or widespread. This is one of the many bits of information I would need before I could even think of making a decision that could even close to coming out successfully.

Here are two articles that I find at least to be mostly unbiased and somewhat accurate. Comments would be great if you have a different perspective.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18141.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18120.htm

yesman065 · 08-08-2007, 10:27 PM

One from the comment page on the first link you posted - There are some really good ones.

"Poor guy thinks cave-dwellers & assorted misfits from poor coutries on the opposite side of the globe are the #1 threat to America. Pathetic.

He's also deluded about Iraq: there's a strong coalition of Iraqi nationalists: that's right IRAQI NATIONALISTS desperately trying to form a coalition. The problem? The U.S. is doing everything it can to prevent that, and to demonize IRAQI NATIONALISTS like Sadr, and back the Iranian: that's right IRANIAN proxy parties like SCIRI. Why? I have no idea, they're nuts! Why is a coalition of IRAQI NATIONALISTS trying to come together? It's just like Chris said, they all need water, they all need oil, and they all need to be strong enough to keep Iran and Turkey out.

The Shia's have control of oil and water. The Kurds have some oil, and the Sunnis have some water, but they're all too weak to resist Iran or Turkey. They need eachother. Only SOME Shia don't agree; they'd be quite happy being an Iranian puppet state. THAT is the real civil war: NATIONALIST Shia vs. IRANIAN PUPPET Shia. The former wins, Iraq stays, the latter wins, Hedges is right."

yesman065 · 08-08-2007, 10:30 PM

This ones even better:

"Please Read - Missing Link - President will be Impeached

Dear Dana Siegelman:

Please Contact Michael Gavin, FBI Montgomery, The FBI left me a code message on the telephone recorder and I believe the Director is ready to jump ship with Gonzales. Also Jill Simpson- Josh McGowen and Jim Parkman will verify our communications.

I am going to be a witness against Deputy Attorney General Joseph Fitzpatrick for the State of Alabama. We believe he is the person mentioned below.

He and his wife were dinner party guests of Karl and Darby Rove at Rosemary Beach, Florida on or about Saturday March 3, 2007, before your father was sentenced to prison. I had drinks with them before the dinner party at Bud-N-Alleys at Seaside, FL.

Jim Parkman thinks that bigger fish were at the party and has written the House Judiciary Committee about my testimony.

I can verify that I was there and have supporting statements from persons I spoke to about meeting them that night. These persons are also credible and former law enforcement agents. I also have bank credit card slips to prove what time the chance meeting took place.

I have 20+ years of veracity with the Federal Law Enforcement agencies and the FBI.

In 1990-92, I was deep cover into the VANPAC mail bomb investigation for the FBI and I can fully document Mark Fuller's and Gary McAiley's involvement with Bush, Sr. in covering for the Enterprise - formerly dubbed - Iran Contra.

I did not get involved or follow your father's case because of my situation the last year. My mother was brutally murdered by blunt force head trauma in Enterprise, Alabama, last August 2006 and I have been living at a secret location since then.

Please call - Counter Intelligence is at all time high - Your father may not know of my testimony - I have tried to contact Redding Pitt - Milton McGregor's atty's are trying to take control of Jill Simpson and head off her testimony to the House Committee and I believe they will have her killed soon.

John Caylor"

yesman065 · 08-08-2007, 10:32 PM

I'm not thinking very much of that source Pierce - not that I know anything about them, but it seems VERY left leaning to me - as well as all the comments at the bottom. *shrug*

Many of the articles from the independent guys in Iraq like Michael Yon are more realistic to me - Hell they may just be cheerleaders for the troops for all I know, but they seem more credible to me.

piercehawkeye45 · 08-09-2007, 06:49 AM

That site has both left and libertarian articles. The article that xoxoxoBruce posted about Germans supporting Hitler was on there.

The problem I see is that no one has any idea what is actually realistic.

yesman065 · 08-09-2007, 07:36 AM

Perhaps what is real and happening in one area is most likely very different than what is happening in another. There are obviously good and bad things happening concurrently. The question is whether there is more positive or negative - to that we ae almost forced to rely on the reporting of others. Their biases, real or imagined skew their views and thus their reports. Additionally, the readers inherent biases also skew what is taken out of those reports.

spudcon · 08-09-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Can you give your account on what the situation is like in Iraq then?

I try to get my sources from experts on Iraq or from Iraqis themselves and I realize that this only a small part of the whole scenario. My official position on Iraq as of now is that I have no idea what we should do. I support neither party because both parties are making the same mistakes as Bush by basing their decisions on assumptions.

From what I have read from numerous sources is that if we pull out, Iraq will become a chaotic anarchical state much like Somalia. Also, I haven't seen that we have had much progress in Iraq and I have huge doubts on whether that will change.

The thing that scares me is that the people of Iraq do not trust the government and the police and I do not know if this view is isolated or widespread. This is one of the many bits of information I would need before I could even think of making a decision that could even close to coming out successfully.

Here are two articles that I find at least to be mostly unbiased and somewhat accurate. Comments would be great if you have a different perspective.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18141.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18120.htm

As i was reading the first link, I was thinking it sounded suspiciously like the CBS evening news. When I read the stringer, I realized I should have recognized the New York Times propaganda footprint. My understanding, from military sources, is that the surge is working, and if successful, we can push these terrorist bombers out of their hiding places and back to Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia where they came from, finally leaving the Iraqis to be able to mend fences, or, fight each other, instead of imported insurgents. I don't think the Iraqis will ever have a democracy like we in the west enjoy, because their culture doesn't allow it. Israel is the only thing close to a democracy in the region.
As far as the link from the dentist in Iraq, I don't know what it proves, other than he is in a war zone. I'm sympathetic, but until his countrymen give up hatred and blaming others, that's how it will be.

Ibby · 08-09-2007, 08:59 AM

Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the region...

...and the people who rule there are non-natives who were simply given the land, and the Palestinians are in a pseudo-democratic terrorist state within a semi-totalitarian substate of israel.
Great example for the region, huh?

08-09-2007, 08:59 AM	#54
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the region... ...and the people who rule there are non-natives who were simply given the land, and the Palestinians are in a pseudo-democratic terrorist state within a semi-totalitarian substate of israel. Great example for the region, huh? __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

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08-08-2007, 08:49 PM	#47
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Can you give your account on what the situation is like in Iraq then? I try to get my sources from experts on Iraq or from Iraqis themselves and I realize that this only a small part of the whole scenario. My official position on Iraq as of now is that I have no idea what we should do. I support neither party because both parties are making the same mistakes as Bush by basing their decisions on assumptions. From what I have read from numerous sources is that if we pull out, Iraq will become a chaotic anarchical state much like Somalia. Also, I haven't seen that we have had much progress in Iraq and I have huge doubts on whether that will change. The thing that scares me is that the people of Iraq do not trust the government and the police and I do not know if this view is isolated or widespread. This is one of the many bits of information I would need before I could even think of making a decision that could even close to coming out successfully. Here are two articles that I find at least to be mostly unbiased and somewhat accurate. Comments would be great if you have a different perspective. http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18141.htm http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18120.htm

08-08-2007, 10:27 PM	#48
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	One from the comment page on the first link you posted - There are some really good ones. "Poor guy thinks cave-dwellers & assorted misfits from poor coutries on the opposite side of the globe are the #1 threat to America. Pathetic. He's also deluded about Iraq: there's a strong coalition of Iraqi nationalists: that's right IRAQI NATIONALISTS desperately trying to form a coalition. The problem? The U.S. is doing everything it can to prevent that, and to demonize IRAQI NATIONALISTS like Sadr, and back the Iranian: that's right IRANIAN proxy parties like SCIRI. Why? I have no idea, they're nuts! Why is a coalition of IRAQI NATIONALISTS trying to come together? It's just like Chris said, they all need water, they all need oil, and they all need to be strong enough to keep Iran and Turkey out. The Shia's have control of oil and water. The Kurds have some oil, and the Sunnis have some water, but they're all too weak to resist Iran or Turkey. They need eachother. Only SOME Shia don't agree; they'd be quite happy being an Iranian puppet state. THAT is the real civil war: NATIONALIST Shia vs. IRANIAN PUPPET Shia. The former wins, Iraq stays, the latter wins, Hedges is right."

08-08-2007, 10:30 PM	#49
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	This ones even better: "Please Read - Missing Link - President will be Impeached Dear Dana Siegelman: Please Contact Michael Gavin, FBI Montgomery, The FBI left me a code message on the telephone recorder and I believe the Director is ready to jump ship with Gonzales. Also Jill Simpson- Josh McGowen and Jim Parkman will verify our communications. I am going to be a witness against Deputy Attorney General Joseph Fitzpatrick for the State of Alabama. We believe he is the person mentioned below. He and his wife were dinner party guests of Karl and Darby Rove at Rosemary Beach, Florida on or about Saturday March 3, 2007, before your father was sentenced to prison. I had drinks with them before the dinner party at Bud-N-Alleys at Seaside, FL. Jim Parkman thinks that bigger fish were at the party and has written the House Judiciary Committee about my testimony. I can verify that I was there and have supporting statements from persons I spoke to about meeting them that night. These persons are also credible and former law enforcement agents. I also have bank credit card slips to prove what time the chance meeting took place. I have 20+ years of veracity with the Federal Law Enforcement agencies and the FBI. In 1990-92, I was deep cover into the VANPAC mail bomb investigation for the FBI and I can fully document Mark Fuller's and Gary McAiley's involvement with Bush, Sr. in covering for the Enterprise - formerly dubbed - Iran Contra. I did not get involved or follow your father's case because of my situation the last year. My mother was brutally murdered by blunt force head trauma in Enterprise, Alabama, last August 2006 and I have been living at a secret location since then. Please call - Counter Intelligence is at all time high - Your father may not know of my testimony - I have tried to contact Redding Pitt - Milton McGregor's atty's are trying to take control of Jill Simpson and head off her testimony to the House Committee and I believe they will have her killed soon. John Caylor"

08-08-2007, 10:32 PM	#50
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	I'm not thinking very much of that source Pierce - not that I know anything about them, but it seems VERY left leaning to me - as well as all the comments at the bottom. shrug Many of the articles from the independent guys in Iraq like Michael Yon are more realistic to me - Hell they may just be cheerleaders for the troops for all I know, but they seem more credible to me.

08-09-2007, 06:49 AM	#51
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	That site has both left and libertarian articles. The article that xoxoxoBruce posted about Germans supporting Hitler was on there. The problem I see is that no one has any idea what is actually realistic.

08-09-2007, 07:36 AM	#52
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	Perhaps what is real and happening in one area is most likely very different than what is happening in another. There are obviously good and bad things happening concurrently. The question is whether there is more positive or negative - to that we ae almost forced to rely on the reporting of others. Their biases, real or imagined skew their views and thus their reports. Additionally, the readers inherent biases also skew what is taken out of those reports.

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