violence problem? ya think?

[headsplice]

Are people really suggesting that all Muslims are radical Muslims because that's who we hear about in the news?
Fun psychological term of the day:
Availability heuristic
MaggieL: why do you believe in jihadist capability?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

MaggieL: why do you believe in jihadist capability?

"Do you beleve in the Bible?"
"Of course, I've actually seen one."

Do you not beleive that jihadists have violent capability? If not, perhaps you should explain why to the people of Manhattan, the Pentagon, London, Madrid, Casablanca, Mumbai, Bali, Jakarta and Israel.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

Are people really suggesting that all Muslims are radical Muslims because that's who we hear about in the news?

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that. But it's a tautology that all radical Muslims are Muslims, and it's unquestionable that they justify their actions by pointing to Muslim dogma.

What's your point?

[headsplice]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

"Do you beleve in the Bible?"
"Of course, I've actually seen one."

Do you not beleive that jihadists have violent capability? If not, perhaps you should explain why to the people of Manhattan, the Pentagon, London, Madrid, Casablanca, Mumbai, Bali, Jakarta and Israel.

Why are people afraid of terrorists? Yeah, they've done some nasty shit. But relatively speaking, they just aren't that effective unless the people that they're striking allow their fear to control them. Unfortunately, we (the US) are doing exactly that (what with the PATRIOT Act, domestic spying, rendition, and general pissing on the Constitution without public furor).
Oh, and don't change your argument. It went from jihadist capability to violent capability. Yes, they're capable of being violent, but are they effective at it? I don't think so. Not without the above mentioned culpability of the target.

[joelnwil]

Well, one of the reasons that the terrorists have been less effective than they would like is that we have that legislation, along with secret prisons and some aggressive interrogation.

We are doing the right thing, in spite of the liberal idiots who have done what they can to undermine the war on terror.

Let's face it: the terrorists want to kill us.

So far as ordinary Muslims are concerned, I find it very difficult to trust any of them. Remember those nice high school Muslim kids around Rochester NY? Seemed ordinary enough, but then they went to summer camp for terrorist training, and come back with a bunch of money. Everybody was shocked.

And let's face it: the current Muslims have done some horribly stupid stuff recently. Like not allowing polio vaccine, and causing an epidemic in Africa, for example. And teaching, in a mosque in Alexandria VA, that slavery is just fine. And lots of domestic violence. When my son goes to a Muslim house to install stereo stuff, he is not allowed to talk to the wife in many cases. It remains to be seen whether those things are the exception or the rule. In fact, the religion is a mess, as illustrated by Manji's book, and the fact that she has been threatened by death for writing it.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

Oh yes, and there was a cleric in Spain who wrote a book on how to beat your wife so that there would be no marks and the authorities would not arrest you. Was there any outcry from the Muslim comminity about the travesty of the book? Not that anybody heard.

With stuff like that, I repeat that I find it difficult to trust any Muslims. Maybe some of them are OK, but it is really difficult to tell which.

[xoxoxoBruce]

joelnwil, I take it you don't know any muslims personally....socially....you know, friends.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by joelnwil

...We are doing the right thing, in spite of the liberal idiots who have done what they can to undermine the war on terror.
...

Let me torture you, to find out if you know anything more about terrorists.

Exactly... then it will just be "no hard feelings" I'm sure. LOL!

When you use the tactics of the enemy, you ARE the enemy. When we ceased to live by what made us a free nation and Americans, they won... we should have just given them the keys the day they snuck the Anti-Patriot Acts through.

That Us-&-Them bigot speech was disgusting.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Rkzen, did killing and bombing Nazi Germany (they were famous for killing and bombing) turn us into Nazi America? No. It didn't because we Americans are of the human-liberty and democratic-governance mindset, both then and now. That other societies lack this mindset and these expectations of their governance is the reason they come up with the crazy shit they do.

A man who wants to be moral has to understand countervailing violence, and the just-war concept of resisting/neutralizing oppression and attempts at oppression. The above extremists have set forth in so many words a program for oppression. They may be trying to sell it by making the oppression slight, but oppression has a way of growing over the years and the generations.

Far better simply to string the oppressors up as an example. You can't oppress anybody with a rope around your neck.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

Oh, and don't change your argument. It went from jihadist capability to violent capability. Yes, they're capable of being violent, but are they effective at it? I don't think so. Not without the above mentioned culpability of the target.

By "jihadist capability", I meant "jihadist capability for violence". Their capability for cookie baking is irrelevant. As for effectiveness, I refer you to the target list I mentioned earlier.

As far as I can see, "culpability of the target" translates pretty directly to "blame the victim". What nonsense.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Rkzen, did killing and bombing Nazi Germany (they were famous for killing and bombing) turn us into Nazi America? No. ...

Are you sure? Does our government punish those who are in opposition to it? (that would be pronounced Plamed) Do we hear "Ve vant to zee your paperz"? getting there. Do we have secret police who monitor various types of communication? You bet. Do we torture those suspected of wrong-doing? Apparently W is trying like hell to make that legal. Seems like we haven't been them, but the current administration is full of Nazi wanna-bes

At least in WWII, we fought the people who officially declared war on us, and we went after the REAL enemy. If we fought WWII the way we are fighting the war in Iraq, we would have bombed Tahiti in retaliation for Pearl Harbor.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Rkzen, did killing and bombing Nazi Germany (they were famous for killing and bombing) turn us into Nazi America? No. It didn't because we Americans are of the human-liberty and democratic-governance mindset, both then and now. That other societies lack this mindset and these expectations of their governance is the reason they come up with the crazy shit they do.

A man who wants to be moral has to understand countervailing violence, and the just-war concept of resisting/neutralizing oppression and attempts at oppression. The above extremists have set forth in so many words a program for oppression. They may be trying to sell it by making the oppression slight, but oppression has a way of growing over the years and the generations.

Far better simply to string the oppressors up as an example. You can't oppress anybody with a rope around your neck.

Nope... though had we killed those in our concentration camps we would have been, had we continued to turn the Jews away like we did from Key West we would have been, had we tortured the Nazis and treated them in defiance of the Geneva convention we would have been, had we held them indefinitely we would have been, had we declared war on our own people like now we would have been.
Dubya used 9/11, perhaps let it happen, perhaps held the door, so he could have his own little Reichstag fire and has raped the Constitution and Bill of Rights while using fear to suppress what should have been our natural reaction to having our rights stripped. Rights being stripped that need not have been because the job could be done with existing laws EXACTLY as they would be for all foreign agents. We are well on our way... we have invaded a nation that was NO threat and fully admitted it... right now we occupy that nation with no explanation by the current administration as to why. By international law the current resistance force that is killing our soldiers is perfectly within their rights and is doing EXACTLY what you and I would be doing if someone invaded and occupied our nation. But, they are not who is murdering those soldiers... not really, those keeping them there are doing it every day. While killing every soldier that dies in Afghanistan, every day, for being understaffed, under supplied and under supported because of Dubya and Co's little game of revenge and the Kissinger pipeline.
It is pretty simple. Yes, if we adopt the form and tactics of the Nazis, we ARE Nazis.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

So this part of your argument, Robert, is "if, if, if, if, if."

That's a lot of ifs, none of which came to pass -- because, I think, we recognize them for the pitfalls they would be and are.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

By international law the current resistance force that is killing our soldiers is perfectly within their rights and is doing EXACTLY what you and I would be doing if someone invaded and occupied our nation.

Strapping bombs onto children and detonating them in employment lines? Maybe you. Not me.

This noble "resistance force" is so brave. So patriotic. All they want is for the mean Americans to go away so they can return to the simple life of farming and rug weaving, right? Luckily, they have a good portion of the US Congress mirroring the sentiments, if not the exact words, of their imams. It's good to have friends in high places.