8/6/2006: Beirut Photoshop - Page 4

Undertoad · 08-08-2006, 03:18 PM

I too want to escape the usual he-said-she-said of what is considered mainstream politics, because the bogus debate is hurting America (ref Jon Stewart re Crossfire) and is tedious.

But I can't help but notice that everyone has a bias, a narrative on what happened, everyone is in schools of thought which influence their point of view.

I would like them to admit the bias so that I can sort of triangulate on the truth. But they don't admit it, so I am left to work it out myself. What a pain in the ass!

xoxoxoBruce · 08-08-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

snip~
But I can't help but notice that everyone has a bias, a narrative on what happened, everyone is in schools of thought which influence their point of view.

Or what you perceive to be bias.

Quote:

I would like them to admit the bias so that I can sort of triangulate on the truth. But they don't admit it, so I am left to work it out myself. What a pain in the ass!

How can they admit to your perceptions of their position, if they don't feel they are bias

Flint · 08-08-2006, 03:26 PM

I don't think that you can declare allegience to an unspecified category, if that makes sense. The problem here is the fallacy of impartiality: we are all biased, as human beings. But trying to lump us into two clean groups is just plain silly.

Flint · 08-08-2006, 04:09 PM

I'm dismissing the notion that we can be so easily manipulated by an "us versus them" distraction when the two "sides" agree on 99% of the things that are really going to matter in the long run. It's worse than "east coast versus west coast" - but in this case, it isn't just rap albums that are for sale.

MaggieL · 08-08-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

...when the two "sides" agree on 99% of the things that are really going to matter in the long run.

There's really more than two sides, and the differences between them *are* significant. You can't elucidate the underlying principles and values by just watching the behavior of politicians; they're constrained to the normative forces of the election process.

Nor can you ignore the underlying biases of any news source just because you find today's rhetoric and lack of comity distasteful; you have to factor in those biases when interpreting their reporting.

Flint · 08-08-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Nor can you ignore the underlying biases of any news source just because you find today's rhetoric and lack of comity distasteful; you have to factor in those biases when interpreting their reporting.

Point taken. But it is worthy to note that I don't watch TV.

That alone does wonders. Really.

MaggieL · 08-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

That alone does wonders. Really.

If not knowing what the ADA qualifies as a "wonder"...sure. As in "I wonder how you can discuss politics" perhaps. Not that you'd learn that from TV.

Of course PBS is radio too...and CNN, the NYT, Reuters and lot of other news sources are online.

Flint · 08-08-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieL

If not knowing what the ADA qualifies as a "wonder"...sure.

So you highly recomend them as a good source of telling me what to think?
I couldn't bear it if I wasn't getting my spoon-fed opinions from fancy expert sources.

MsSparkie · 08-08-2006, 08:50 PM

HEZBOLLYYWOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!

New York Times has joined the fun. Some fake dead.

"New York Times Busted in Hezbollah Photo Fraud!

** Dead Men Walking! **

From the New York Times photo essay by Tyler Hicks on July 27, 2006 comes this unbelievable fraud!"

Undertoad · 08-09-2006, 08:13 AM

I knew it immediately too. It's partly a "computer person" thing, partly a lifelong interest in fonts and typesetting and printing. You remember how documents were created and how they looked through history. How expensive it was to print certain ways.

I looked at it for about three seconds and knew they had been caught. Like my eyes had been sensitized to spot things - it felt at first like a "Beautiful Mind" moment. And then I proceeded to laugh my ass off for the rest of the week as various sides lined up as they looked to first defend the document, and then to say it was fake but accurate. It was great entertainment.

I wound up not voting for Bush... I point that out to say, all my excitement for this has little to do with the politics of it, and everything to do with the Internet, enabling this army of fact-checkers to go to town. And how news changes in the net era.

In fact it will be a great sign that things have changed when the lefty bloggers do the same thing. But they have bigger fish to fry - they've just caused a powerful incumbent Senator to lose a primary on issues, something that just never happens without a scandal.

Flint · 08-09-2006, 08:16 AM

Whereas the doctored photo is visible to the naked eye, with no specialized knowledge or training necessary. We have evloved to intuitively pick up on patterns seen in nature. Also...nobody could theorize that "the crude forgery was genuine" because the wrong-ness of it is clearly visible, at a glance, to anyone who is not legally blind.

"Paint versus Word" is a very clever comparison, but doesn't quite get there.

Undertoad · 08-09-2006, 08:22 AM

How can they admit to my perceptions of bias? Good question I think they should just stop trying to say they're not biased. Stop trying to say that what's being presented is the objective Truth.

People say to me how can you watch that Fox News crap. It's simple, you just watch it with the thought in the back of your mind that it's biased and crap. Then you get more information. You don't even have to like them. I don't like my neighbor's dog, but his barking does give me information. I don't like all the blogs out there, some of them are just "echo chambers" for people who like to be with other people who think just like they do. But they come up with good information.

Flint · 08-09-2006, 08:24 AM

At the root of this is the fact that there is no such thing as objective truth.

Undertoad · 08-09-2006, 08:37 AM

But we won't go there in this thread.

I dislike Michelle Malkin, I think she is annoying and a total bitch and often completely wrong. This morning her post on more Lebanon coverage is must reading. First a NY Times caption is shown to be bogus as an injured man in one photo is shown in other photos to be merrily walking around.

Then a US News COVER is shown to be entirely bogus as the fire and ruins of an Israeli jet turn out to be... a tire fire!!!

Flint · 08-09-2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But we won't go there in this thread.

Yes Sir, Sir! ha ha ha :::slinks off to philosophy forum:::

08-08-2006, 03:26 PM	#3
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I don't think that you can declare allegience to an unspecified category, if that makes sense. The problem here is the fallacy of impartiality: we are all biased, as human beings. But trying to lump us into two clean groups is just plain silly. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-08-2006, 04:09 PM	#4
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I'm dismissing the notion that we can be so easily manipulated by an "us versus them" distraction when the two "sides" agree on 99% of the things that are really going to matter in the long run. It's worse than "east coast versus west coast" - but in this case, it isn't just rap albums that are for sale. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-08-2006, 08:50 PM	#9
MsSparkie Curious Sagittarius Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 302	HEZBOLLYYWOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!! New York Times has joined the fun. Some fake dead. "New York Times Busted in Hezbollah Photo Fraud! Dead Men Walking! From the New York Times photo essay by Tyler Hicks on July 27, 2006 comes this unbelievable fraud!" __________________ ~There is a forest in an acorn......

08-09-2006, 08:16 AM	#11
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Whereas the doctored photo is visible to the naked eye, with no specialized knowledge or training necessary. We have evloved to intuitively pick up on patterns seen in nature. Also...nobody could theorize that "the crude forgery was genuine" because the wrong-ness of it is clearly visible, at a glance, to anyone who is not legally blind. "Paint versus Word" is a very clever comparison, but doesn't quite get there. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-09-2006, 08:24 AM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	At the root of this is the fact that there is no such thing as objective truth. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-08-2006, 03:18 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I too want to escape the usual he-said-she-said of what is considered mainstream politics, because the bogus debate is hurting America (ref Jon Stewart re Crossfire) and is tedious. But I can't help but notice that everyone has a bias, a narrative on what happened, everyone is in schools of thought which influence their point of view. I would like them to admit the bias so that I can sort of triangulate on the truth. But they don't admit it, so I am left to work it out myself. What a pain in the ass!

08-09-2006, 08:13 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I knew it immediately too. It's partly a "computer person" thing, partly a lifelong interest in fonts and typesetting and printing. You remember how documents were created and how they looked through history. How expensive it was to print certain ways. I looked at it for about three seconds and knew they had been caught. Like my eyes had been sensitized to spot things - it felt at first like a "Beautiful Mind" moment. And then I proceeded to laugh my ass off for the rest of the week as various sides lined up as they looked to first defend the document, and then to say it was fake but accurate. It was great entertainment. I wound up not voting for Bush... I point that out to say, all my excitement for this has little to do with the politics of it, and everything to do with the Internet, enabling this army of fact-checkers to go to town. And how news changes in the net era. In fact it will be a great sign that things have changed when the lefty bloggers do the same thing. But they have bigger fish to fry - they've just caused a powerful incumbent Senator to lose a primary on issues, something that just never happens without a scandal.

08-09-2006, 08:22 AM	#12
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	How can they admit to my perceptions of bias? Good question I think they should just stop trying to say they're not biased. Stop trying to say that what's being presented is the objective Truth. People say to me how can you watch that Fox News crap. It's simple, you just watch it with the thought in the back of your mind that it's biased and crap. Then you get more information. You don't even have to like them. I don't like my neighbor's dog, but his barking does give me information. I don't like all the blogs out there, some of them are just "echo chambers" for people who like to be with other people who think just like they do. But they come up with good information.

08-09-2006, 08:37 AM	#14
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	But we won't go there in this thread. I dislike Michelle Malkin, I think she is annoying and a total bitch and often completely wrong. This morning her post on more Lebanon coverage is must reading. First a NY Times caption is shown to be bogus as an injured man in one photo is shown in other photos to be merrily walking around. Then a US News COVER is shown to be entirely bogus as the fire and ruins of an Israeli jet turn out to be... a tire fire!!!

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