10/24/2005: Dog becomes shark bait - Page 3

Happy Monkey · 10-24-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

When you show the same compassion for the weeds in your lawn that you do for the alleged dog in the above picture then I'll listen to what you have to say.

Do you believe plants can feel pain, or that dogs can't?

footfootfoot · 10-24-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Do you believe plants can feel pain, or that dogs can't?

If you are asking if I believe plants have a nervous system similar to mammals, then no; I didn't miss that much of biology class.

If you are attempting to set up a hierarchy of worthiness based upon how much a person empathizes with something then that is what I am referring to in my earlier post.

I find it pretty awful to use a live animal as bait on many many levels. But if you want to take the opinion for a moment that there is a hierarchy to creatures, and humans are somewhere in the top 5%, then it is probably more destructive to the people who are using animals as bait than it is to the animals being used as bait. After all, isn't it part of the argument that we humans have consciousness? And wouldn't it be taking a step down for a human to behave in such an uncompassionate way?

If compassion is a worthy trait of humans then isn't it somewhat false to say: "well, I have compassion for this creature because it is a lot like me, but bugs, well, bugs are kind of a nuisance so I don't really care about bugs. And while we're at it, fish don't really think, I mean scientists have proven that, so it is okay to just kill them. And vegetables can't run away, so they must have been meant to be eaten." etc.

So is it a conditional compassion and if so, based upon whose value set? At one end you've got the Jains who filter their water so they won't harm a single microbe (or so it's been alleged; I don't know any Jains) Most cellarites will agree that is pretty wacky. At the other end you've got any number of genocidal maniacs.

I don't have a special fondness for dogs or shark hunters, I'm just wary of the type of thinking that projects personal values onto creatures at large. The "live dogs make good shark bait" coin has two sides.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-24-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

The "live dogs make good shark bait" coin has two sides.

Yes it does..... couldn't and shouldn't.
I couldn't and they shouldn't.
Because I say so.
Because dogs are affectionate.
Plants are not affectionate.
I think my first wife was a plant.

Trilby · 10-25-2005, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If compassion is a worthy trait of humans then isn't it somewhat false to say: "well, I have compassion for this creature because it is a lot like me, but bugs, well, bugs are kind of a nuisance so I don't really care about bugs. And while we're at it, fish don't really think, I mean scientists have proven that, so it is okay to just kill them. And vegetables can't run away, so they must have been meant to be eaten." etc.

I didn't come close to saying that. I said that I, personally, have an emotional attachment to dogs/cats. I admit that. I, strangely, do not have such an attachment to sharks. I FEAR the sea and all the creatures in it. Fear is not a good base for love. I said I am not bothered by live minnows used for bait and it is because I do not think they have a consciousness--I should have made that clear. What I said is true for me. It's not false at all. I didn't say it was true for everyone, obviously. It's not true for you, or the shark baiters.

Happy Monkey · 10-25-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If you are asking if I believe plants have a nervous system similar to mammals, then no; I didn't miss that much of biology class.

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

footfootfoot · 10-25-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

I read "The secret life of plants" back in the 70's. A lot of experiments were done with plants being hooked up to polygraph machines as I recall. There was one that stands out in my memory:
Several plants were set up in a room and a series of people walked through the room, one at a time, past the plants. One of the people was instructed to pick a plant at random and tear it out of its pot and rip it to pieces.

Later the people again filed past the plants and when the plant killer came into the room the machines went berserk.

I would like to see that experiment reproduced on NOVA.

I'm not sure what I believe, today when I went out onto my lawn and saw that one of my filthy neighbors let his dog shit on my lawn, you know I was thinking about using him as shark bait, to hell with his dog.

But that's just me being a backsliding buddhist.

warch · 10-24-2005, 07:10 PM

hmm. Well when the barking wont stop at 4 AM....you might as well get up and go fishin'. No need to cast. Just throw a stick and he'll swim out.

noooo..I kid....good doggie...fluffy puppy.

Pearcie (AUS) · 10-25-2005, 12:43 AM

I saw video footage of that same dog with that same hook thru it's nose. Most definitely looked real in the video and I am having a hard time imagining why anyone would create a hoax image of this (tho stranger things have happened) I believe it and am appalled by it.

No animal should be treated in this way - there's just no need for it.

Sweets · 10-25-2005, 02:32 AM

OMFG I almost didn't want to open up this one, I was scared IW ould see somethign far more graphic and lose my interest in the Cellar. I'm glad I looked though, thanks for not making it the worst of what I was thinking :P

Anyway, This is the most cruel, and inhumane thing I have EVER heard of. Those poor animals. Now, I'm not the type who normally goes on and on about animal cruelty (while I think it is wrong) I never publically state my opinion, but this is just SICK. LIVE DOGS AND CATS?! What is wrong with these people! I just want to cry.

noviceathome · 10-25-2005, 04:08 AM

It looks to me as though this dog has tried to eat someone's bait, perhaps washed up or discarded on the beach, and ended up with piercings. Probably not too much discomfort after the initial shock and critters adapt quickly to circumstance as evidenced by the earlier victim of a scrap with a porcupine.

papabell · 10-25-2005, 09:25 AM

Brianna! <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention!

How many times did you use the word "I" in your last post... count them I'll wait.

I got 12, too.

Feet's point is that your values cannot be automatically applied to people of another culture. It isn't about you. It's about life. The reason we are appalled by the thought of pushing a hook through a dog's nose and not a fish's has to do with our point of view.

We were raised to value a dog's life nearly as much as our own. We grow up with dog's as pets and as friends and the feelings are too personal to let us accept this type of treatment. But, fish... yeah they swim on our counters, but they don't cuddle with us... they don't lick our faces. From our point of veiw, a fish's life has less value. Its just something pretty for the counter. It can't fetch a ball or comfort us when we're sad.

So, what is the difference between hooking a minnow and hooking a dog? It's the point of view, values, stemming from personal experiences that decide right and wrong. There is no absolute truth. The sharkbaiters have applied their values, derived from personal experience we know nothing about, to the situation and acted accordingly. Yes, its disgusting, appalling, and wrong - from our point of view.

But the thing feet and noodle are getting at is that this should make us take a closer look at our values. Why has our life experience allowed us to come to the conclusion that it is ok to hook a fish and eat it? Shouldn't we step out of our own experience and come to a conclusion that is right independant of your point of view?

Now for the punch line... None of this matters.

Feet, Noodle, <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention! There is no absolute truth. There is no moral right. No matter where you draw the line someone else draws it two feet to the left. Societal values, then, must be about either concensus or tyranny. I choose concensus becuase many views are more likely to match mine than one is. I say we feed the sharkbaiters to the hammerheads in Vegas. And my point of view must be right, nothing else makes sense...

capnhowdy · 10-27-2005, 06:42 AM

If it was meant to be disturbing it hit the nail right on the goddam head. Thats for sure.

darclauz · 10-27-2005, 02:16 PM

i notice cats aren't in this line. i think cats -- more specifically, my husband's cat -- would make a heck of a bait.

shark bait..ooh ha ha.
stuck in my head now....just like a fishhook, or a cat penis.

footfootfoot · 10-29-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darclauz

snip
stuck in my head now....just like a fishhook, or a cat penis.

How, and in what part of your head, exactly, did you get a cat penis stuck?

On second thought, never mind.

Trilby · 10-27-2005, 03:29 PM

um. darclauz. pretty much hate you now.

10-27-2005, 06:42 AM	#12
capnhowdy Blatantly Homosapien Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,200	If it was meant to be disturbing it hit the nail right on the goddam head. Thats for sure. __________________ Please type slowly. I can't read very fast............... and no holy water, please.

10-27-2005, 02:16 PM	#13
darclauz Breathing into a paper bag Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 334	i notice cats aren't in this line. i think cats -- more specifically, my husband's cat -- would make a heck of a bait. shark bait..ooh ha ha. stuck in my head now....just like a fishhook, or a cat penis. __________________ Taking up smoking to lose weight.

10-27-2005, 03:29 PM	#15
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	um. darclauz. pretty much hate you now. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

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10-24-2005, 07:10 PM	#7
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	hmm. Well when the barking wont stop at 4 AM....you might as well get up and go fishin'. No need to cast. Just throw a stick and he'll swim out. noooo..I kid....good doggie...fluffy puppy.

10-25-2005, 12:43 AM	#8
Pearcie (AUS) Superior Inhabitant Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73	I saw video footage of that same dog with that same hook thru it's nose. Most definitely looked real in the video and I am having a hard time imagining why anyone would create a hoax image of this (tho stranger things have happened) I believe it and am appalled by it. No animal should be treated in this way - there's just no need for it.

10-25-2005, 02:32 AM	#9
Sweets Because someone has to EAD Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cauliflornia, USA Posts: 35	OMFG I almost didn't want to open up this one, I was scared IW ould see somethign far more graphic and lose my interest in the Cellar. I'm glad I looked though, thanks for not making it the worst of what I was thinking :P Anyway, This is the most cruel, and inhumane thing I have EVER heard of. Those poor animals. Now, I'm not the type who normally goes on and on about animal cruelty (while I think it is wrong) I never publically state my opinion, but this is just SICK. LIVE DOGS AND CATS?! What is wrong with these people! I just want to cry.

10-25-2005, 04:08 AM	#10
noviceathome Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: perth, australia Posts: 87	It looks to me as though this dog has tried to eat someone's bait, perhaps washed up or discarded on the beach, and ended up with piercings. Probably not too much discomfort after the initial shock and critters adapt quickly to circumstance as evidenced by the earlier victim of a scrap with a porcupine.

10-25-2005, 09:25 AM	#11
papabell now everybody's praying, don't prey on me - gg Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 8	Brianna! <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention! How many times did you use the word "I" in your last post... count them I'll wait. I got 12, too. Feet's point is that your values cannot be automatically applied to people of another culture. It isn't about you. It's about life. The reason we are appalled by the thought of pushing a hook through a dog's nose and not a fish's has to do with our point of view. We were raised to value a dog's life nearly as much as our own. We grow up with dog's as pets and as friends and the feelings are too personal to let us accept this type of treatment. But, fish... yeah they swim on our counters, but they don't cuddle with us... they don't lick our faces. From our point of veiw, a fish's life has less value. Its just something pretty for the counter. It can't fetch a ball or comfort us when we're sad. So, what is the difference between hooking a minnow and hooking a dog? It's the point of view, values, stemming from personal experiences that decide right and wrong. There is no absolute truth. The sharkbaiters have applied their values, derived from personal experience we know nothing about, to the situation and acted accordingly. Yes, its disgusting, appalling, and wrong - from our point of view. But the thing feet and noodle are getting at is that this should make us take a closer look at our values. Why has our life experience allowed us to come to the conclusion that it is ok to hook a fish and eat it? Shouldn't we step out of our own experience and come to a conclusion that is right independant of your point of view? Now for the punch line... None of this matters. Feet, Noodle, <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention! There is no absolute truth. There is no moral right. No matter where you draw the line someone else draws it two feet to the left. Societal values, then, must be about either concensus or tyranny. I choose concensus becuase many views are more likely to match mine than one is. I say we feed the sharkbaiters to the hammerheads in Vegas. And my point of view must be right, nothing else makes sense...

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