I need some help

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

yes it is. it was an intentional choice to speak in that manner. we are not speaking about a group of immigrants that has entered the US and mixed their primary language and english (spanglish, creole). we are talking about people who chose to speak in a specific manner in order to stand out and mark their "differentness". this isn't a language that survived from the days of the slave trade and grew into what it is today. this way of speaking is highly connected and influenced by the hiphop culture.

Too funny for words.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Queen of the Ryche

I understand regional accents, and regional dialect when certain items exist in one area but not another (e.g. grits), but I don't agree with bastardization of language just to create your own special "dialect".

AAVE speakers have been isolated from mainstream society for the largest part of the last several hundred years. Their speech has aggregated a lot more things like "grits" than other white southern english speakers. An accent is by definition a dialect, IIRC. They didn't intentionally change their speech patterns to create their own dialect/language.

I'll point to this article again for those that would like a decent short description of how AAVE/Ebonics was formed.

Here is a surprisingly long list of englishes.

[Trilby]

Ok. It's a language. It's a language associated with ignorance, lack of education, lack of couth, and lack of class. You want to speak like a stupid hick? Go ahead. You want to speak like a stupid, know-nothing ebonic-speaker? Go ahead. It's a free country. Just don't get upset when I treat you like a moron, don't hire you, or dismiss your opinions as unlearned. PEOPLE MAKE IMPRESSIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE BASED ON A LOT OF THINGS! Speech is one of them. You don't have to like it, but it's there. Pretending like it shouldn't be an issue doesn't keep it from being an issue. You think it's "fucking sad" that I wouldn't associate with an ebonic-speaker? I think it's sad that you would. Vive la difference!

[mrnoodle]

Multiculturalism is teh l337!!!!!!11!!eleven

[OnyxCougar]

From Grants link, confirming Brianna's point about their choice to be different:

AAVE's departure from Southern American English was a natural consequence of cultural differences between blacks and whites. Sociologists, linguists and psychologists, however, believe divergent development of this kind is often passive subversion. Language becomes a means of self-differentiation that helps forge group identity, solidarity and pride. In the case of African Americans, AAVE has survived and thrived through the centuries also as a result of various degrees of isolation from Southern American English and Standard American English--through both self-segregation and marginalization from mainstream society.

edit: It occurs to me that this reflects the whole "African-American as a distinctive cultural subgroup" mindset as opposed to American folks who happen to be black.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

From Grants link, confirming Brianna's point about their choice to be different:

Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized. So it's partly the fault of those who brought them here. And partly the fault of mainstream society for maintaining the pressures that engendered the subversion. Yes, they partly choose to maintain the AAVE language but pretty much everyone tries to maintain their cultural identity which language plays a huge part of.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by grant

... pretty much everyone tries to maintain their cultural identity which language plays a huge part of.

This is a relatively recent viewpoint. I know a lot of people who are VERY proud of their ethnic identity, and don't speak their mother (or father, depending on culture) tongues.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by wolf

This is a relatively recent viewpoint. I know a lot of people who are VERY proud of their ethnic identity, and don't speak their mother (or father, depending on culture) tongues.

I suppose so. I hadn't really looked back at things very well. I'm not sure where this new trend came about or if it really is a trend that applies to the majority of ethnic groups. (This is one of my complaints about sociology and social science, very little is concrete. Nobody knows anything, it's all hypthetical or anecdotal evidence)

Another strong factor, I believe, is that Ebonics and Spanish speakers tend to remain in, or strongly connected to, a social group who's primary language is not SAE. Latinos tend to stay closely tied to their families in Latin American countries through the Spanish language so it remains important for them to know it. For urban Ebonics speaking blacks, unless they move to a non-Ebonics speaking area and are forced to interact daily & relatively intimately, they will continue to speak Ebonics and pick up rudimentary(hopefully at least) SAE skills. That is if both groups are accepting of the others.

(i'm quite sleep deprived so if none of that made sense, it's either because I'm retarded or not all here right now)

[Clodfobble]

I classify dialects as legitimate entirely on whether they're adding or taking away. Adding vocabulary and slang is one thing. These are words that don't exist elsewhere, and presumably there wasn't a word that effectively conveyed the same meaning before. But refusing to conjugate verbs is doing nothing but simplifying the language and communicating less information. "He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

[lookout123]

Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized.

try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.

is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.

an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.

is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.

an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.

My point here is that in the past they WERE pushed to this behavior and they embraced this behavior. Now it's a part of their culture and getting people to speak like you want them to because YOU say so is nearly impossible.

I agree that they are self-marginalizing now. There are many opportunities for anyone in this country as long as they'll fit through societal filters. But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.

The other thing is our perspective in the U.S. is pretty unique on some things. For instance, do you have any idea how many languages and dialects are present in an area the size of the United States in other parts of the world? There are probably as many dialects in natives of Switzerland as there are in the entire U.S. In germanic countries they try and get everyone to learn Hoch-Deutsch so that all germanics can communicate in a common language. This is similar to what we do with Standard American English.

[Trilby]

Ok, BigV. Now, was that ebonics or Uncle Remus? Or, both?

Oh, and the challenge is to "start posting"--meaning more than one. So, you'll keep posting like that, right, BigV?

I'm in a group setting once a week. There are all sorts of people in this group. One woman refers to her boyfriend as, "mah niggah." No one says anything about this, probably because the woman is black. I wonder what would happen if I referred to MY boyfriend like that...

[Trilby]

Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?

It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by grant

It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.

Ah, yes. We have to be "down" with the "homies" to speak this delicious bit of Americana. I understand. I'm with a group once a week. A lot of them speak...something...I don't know what it is, and I can't understand it. One of the BIG words that is tossed about in this group is "niggah". That one I do understand, in my whitebread manner. It's used in a variety of ways by these folks. One woman refers to her boyfriend as "mah niggah", but she probably gets away with it because she is black.