4/26/2005: Agent Orange victim

[melidasaur]

my question is... how does he close his eyes?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by jaguar

You're contradicting yourself. Noone I've come across denies that Agent Orange and the fucking nasty dioxins it contained are responsible for the disturbingly high rates of cancer, birth defects, neural diseases and other problems in South Vietnam. The North was never really sprayed, rates there are normal.

No, I'm not. I'm NOT denying that Agent Orange is bad stuff, or that it has potentially long lasting consequences.

All that I'm saying is that until the sad little dude's issues are identified as being the result of dioxin exposure, beating up on the US as being the responsible party is not justified.

[xoxoxoBruce]

AGAIN, yeah, so what can we do about it??????

[Troubleshooter]

Well, the appropriate liberal response would be to file a class action suit on the part of all of the funny looking kids, give them all 15 million dollars, feel good about ourselves and then promptly forget about it.

[warch]

If there are no lingering dioxin related health problems based on documented actions, how come US Veterans who no longer have direct contact with the contamination have been legally recognized to receive compensation and health coverage specifically for Agent Orange related illnesses? While those who continue to live in documented US contaminated areas are suspect. That seems contradictory.

[wolf]

The lawsuits for Vietnamese citizens have been filed.

The class action lawsuit on behalf of vietnam vets settled so fast (back in 1985?) that ONLY people who had designated themsevlves as part of the class could recover damages, and no one after that date is permitted to identify themselves as part of that class, and no one can initiate a new lawsuit on behalf of vietnam vets.

[wolf]

Oh, and Dioxin exposure tends to cause an assortment of particularly nasty and usually rare cancers, leukemia, and some skin rashes. In children exposed in utero or possibly resulting from contamination in male or female parent spina bifida is the most common, with some other conditions (Achondroplasia, Cleft lip and cleft palate, Congenital heart disease, Congenital talipes equinovarus (clubfoot), Esophageal and intestinal atresia, Hallerman-Streiff syndrome, Hip dysplasia, Hydrocephalus due to aqueductal stenosis, Hypospadias, Imperforate anus, Neural tube defects (including spina bifida, encephalocele, and anencephaly), Poland syndrome, Pyloric stenosis, Syndactyly (fused digits), Tracheoesophageal fistula, Undescended testicle, Williams syndrome)
being identified as qualifying vets for benefits if the condition is not congenital in his/her family.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by worldpress.org

Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."

http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.
before and after

[BigV]

Originally Posted by worldpress.org

Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."

http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.

[busterb]

By God! Big V, You do try to get your point across.

[BigV]

*ahem*

Thanks busterb, I wrestled with the image link and didn't notice that the "rough drafts" were still posted. Sorry for the wasted resources.

deleted mistakes now.

[wolf]

You missed one ...

[warch]

Well, the appropriate liberal response would be to file a class action suit on the part of all of the funny looking kids, give them all 15 million dollars, feel good about ourselves and then promptly forget about it.

No. I think the appropriate liberal response would be to investigate the claims further ( a lawsuit is obviously neccessary to demand governmental and corporate attention), build a working relationship with the Vietnamese on this issue that strives to move beyond political games, respond with justice and compassion to the afflicted- including any Vets still suffering, to those found to have been made ill by our toxic dump or those at continuing risk, this compassion taking the form of funding internationally collaborative healthcare support, environmental education, and cleanup as possible. The appropriate liberal response I think, is rational and civil.

[tw]

Originally Posted by warch

No. I think the appropriate liberal response would be to investigate the claims further ( a lawsuit is obviously neccessary to demand governmental and corporate attention), build a working relationship with the Vietnamese on this issue that strives to move beyond political games, respond with justice and compassion to the afflicted- including any Vets still suffering, to those found to have been made ill by our toxic dump or those at continuing risk, this compassion taking the form of funding internationally collaborative healthcare support, environmental education, and cleanup as possible. The appropriate liberal response I think, is rational and civil.

There is a small problem with the assumption that that genetic defect is traceable to Agent Orange. Even the Admiral who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (during Vietnam) believed Agent Orange killed his son. But making specific proof has been elusive.

First, not all Agent Orange contained dioxin. When made correctly, Agent Orange had no dioxin. But many companies (including one in the same county as The Cellar) made the stuff. Not all made it correctly. The amounts of dioxin vary significantly and do not exist in all locations treated by Agent Orange. Therefore many locations where dioxins did not exist are still blamed for health and birth defects.

It gets more complex. For example, a recent study demonstrated how large doses of toxins cause no adverse problems whereas low (minisucle) doses can cause genetic defects. This only complicates a problem in courts.

Yes, there is a statistical relationship between Agent Orange and those health problems. Which ones? No one can say. Even the Admiral could not establish a relationship between Agent Orange and his son's death even though he tried. The problem is the science. A direct relationship between a specific health problem and dioxin currently does not exist.

Pictured is what dioxin did the Yushchenko. Why were the Austrian doctors originally so mystified by his health problem? Because what dioxin does still is not well understood. This poisoning was only discovered in two or three 'not well circulated' papers in Russia (which is why Russian involvement was suspected). Specialists from U of VA eventually uncovered a link between dioxin and the previously unknow health problem. No matter how much one is sure that dioxin must be the source of so many Vietnam birth defects, unfortunately, science still does not understand what dioxin does nor what diseases can result.

The world is ternary. Arguements made here are based upon binary logic. Yes, there is a statistical relationship between dioxin and health defects. But the law demands that a defect must be specifically attached to a source. Unfortunately, a direct relationship between low level dioxin exposure and the resulting health problems have never been established. Not established even by those who desperately wanted to find those relationships. Tragic? Yes. But the emotion attached to a tragedy does not make fact. The courts need facts.

As the frog demonstrates, science did not understand that lower levels of a toxin can sometimes be more lethal. Still unknown are reasons why this is so. Science also was mostly unaware of a relationship between dioxin and what Yushcenko suffered. Major talent was recruited to save Yushchenko's life.

In a ternary world, the relationship between Agent Orange and specific genetic defects remains in neither the Yes or No categories. In science, the relationship remains in the column entitled "unknown".

The one fact we do know - some applications of Agent Orange appear to be statistically related to health and birth defects. Details still remain unknown.

A very good case could be made for a government conspiracy to coverup the Agent Orange story. However, where are all the employees of those Agent Orange factories who should have also suffered? Too many questions remain to make a case in court.

[wolf]

Is that before or after the traditional knee jerk reaction?