tell me what you think about this - Page 3

juju · 12-03-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
It has been proven, many times over, that moderate drinking is a healthier lifestyle than not drinking at all. Moderate drinkers live on average 2-3 years longer than non-drinkers.

Is one drink a day really moderate?

Do they live longer because of the alcohol, or because of some other reason? I'm not sure if I like the correlational logic here.

warch · 12-03-2003, 04:21 PM

Alcohol ingested by adults and passed to developing kids is toxic. When the defects caused by alcohol were first studied, in the 80s I think, the thought was that malnutrition was the cause. But further study demonstrated the toxicity of alcohol. What's not know is if there is a safe level or even beneficial level- so, true, abstinence is recommended.

Current studies I just googled are looking at light and moderate consumption, in human populations and also using primates and rats, to try and impose more environmental controls. So far the few Ive seen say that it appears even light (the rat), and moderate (the primate) consumption raises the occurance of the studied birth defects.

There was also a genomic study that isolated a gene relationship to the effects, with various levels of alcohol. So maybe if you got a good genetic report card you could drink up? I dunno.

With the risks we know right now, the responsible act is to put the glass down.

Pie · 12-03-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ladysycamore

Hm...child abuse anyone?

There was a case where a mother used coke while pregnant, and had a stillborn child. She was charged with "fetal homicide".

- Pie

hot_pastrami · 12-03-2003, 05:03 PM

When my wife and I start having children in a couple years, I will not be cool with any drinking on Brittany's part during pregnancy. Of course I will also stop drinking during that time to be supportive. It'll suck at times, but that's one of the hard decisions a parent has to make when they want to give the unborn kid the best possible chances for health, happiness, and success.

Honestly though, I think that moderate, responsible drinking is probably no riskier than a lot of other things the fetus will inevitably be exposed to. But desite that belief, we'll be basing our actions on scientific data, not on personal opinion. There are many things that are probably just as risky to the fetus, if not moreso, than alcohol... over-the-counter medicines, fumes from household cleaners, air pollution, cellphone radiation... what of these? If it were proven that cellphone transmissions were harmful to a developing fetus, would you slap the phone out of a pregnant woman's hand?

The alcohol thing is a kind of question that can only be answered on a personal level, like the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life issue. It all depends on how an individual weighs the rights of the mother against the rights of the unborn child. There is no "right" answer.

hot_pastrami · 12-03-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pie

There was a case where a mother used coke while pregnant, and had a stillborn child. She was charged with "fetal homicide".

- Pie

Got a link? Was it in the U.S.? I never heard about that.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-03-2003, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami

Got a link? Was it in the U.S.? I never heard about that.

I remember that story on the news because it was a first so the made note of it but no idea when or where.
20 years ago the U of Mich did a study that showed 1 drink would make you a slightly safer driver. Of course 2 or more were very detrimental.

Pie · 12-03-2003, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami

Got a link? Was it in the U.S.? I never heard about that.

Sure. Here's one... And another... -- this case went up to the Supreme Court.

To my mind, a woman's responsibility during pregnancy is "whole hawg or none" -- that is, if she decides to become a mother and not abort her child, she has a fundamental responsibility to do her level best to provide for that child. That includes doing everything possible to provide a safe, secure and healthy start for that baby. No alcohol, no drugs. (My mom even gave up caffeine when she was pregnant with me! The woman is a saint!)

I am pro-choice. MAKE the choice, and then live by your decision.

- Pie

OnyxCougar · 12-03-2003, 08:18 PM

Personal Experience:
Justin:
Conception/Genetics: Both healthy parents, no major health issues other than my asthma and allergies. No alcohol, drugs or cigarettes consumed by either parent.
Pregnancy: Homeless, eating mostly top ramen (cold), coconuts and tofu once or twice a day to survive. No medical care whatsoever. Not one doctor visit.
Outcome: Justin is blind in one eye, has nystagmus and a host of other optical issues and degeneration. Will possibly be completely blind before age 30. Has been diagnosed with ADD.

Bryan:
Conception/Genetics: Prior to conception, the father smoked much weed, drank much alcohol, and smoked like a chimney. I was still "clean" throughout the entire pregnancy.
Pregnancy: I ate so much crap, caffeine and junk food that I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. I occasionally (maybe 3 times the whole pregnancy) had a glass of wine.
Outcome: Bryan had multiple ear infections prior to age 15 months and eventually had bilateral tubes. Due to the constant ear infections, his language was delayed because everything he heard was muffled. This snowball-effected into social/developmental delays and he's been in Special Education ever since. Slightly Autistic and it is possible he'll never live on his own.

Piglet:
Conception/Genetics: Both of us teetotalers. Especially Dave.
Pregnancy: David forced me (no guns or knives, but yes, I was forced) to eat only healthy foods. I was not allowed to ingest anything containing caffeine or artificial sugars. Period. I managed to talk him into letting me have ice cream ONCE, and that was sugar free. Forced to exercise three times a week (just walking) for one hour.
Outcome: A healthy little girl and 4.5 hour labor, start to finish. She's smart, quick to pick up new ideas and is very observant. She does have Hemoglobin-C, which is one step removed from Sickle-Cell, but doesn't affect her health. With genetic counseling, this won't be a problem with her children, either. This is a gift from Dave's genetics.

So I have seen for myself the very real results of how well you care for yourself directly and fundamentally relates to your child.

Scopulus Argentarius · 12-03-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by staceyv
is it now safe and socially acceptable to drink liquor, coffee and smoke weed while you are pregnant?

Nahh..the liquor is usually how a gal gets pregnant in the first place

Undertoad · 12-04-2003, 07:46 AM

BTW, weed is likely safe during early pregnancy! Cannabinoids are similar to a brain chemical produced by the body itself, and will cross the placenta, but only affect receptors of the brain that the fetus doesn't even have until about the 5th or 6th month.

facinated by this kind of thing

lumberjim · 12-04-2003, 08:11 AM

hey, toad....i know this is off topic, but what is the 211.5 in your title about?

Undertoad · 12-04-2003, 08:26 AM

It's my weight. It was headed downward for a long while but it's stuck for some reason such as the t-giving holiday.

12-03-2003, 05:03 PM	#34
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	When my wife and I start having children in a couple years, I will not be cool with any drinking on Brittany's part during pregnancy. Of course I will also stop drinking during that time to be supportive. It'll suck at times, but that's one of the hard decisions a parent has to make when they want to give the unborn kid the best possible chances for health, happiness, and success. Honestly though, I think that moderate, responsible drinking is probably no riskier than a lot of other things the fetus will inevitably be exposed to. But desite that belief, we'll be basing our actions on scientific data, not on personal opinion. There are many things that are probably just as risky to the fetus, if not moreso, than alcohol... over-the-counter medicines, fumes from household cleaners, air pollution, cellphone radiation... what of these? If it were proven that cellphone transmissions were harmful to a developing fetus, would you slap the phone out of a pregnant woman's hand? The alcohol thing is a kind of question that can only be answered on a personal level, like the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life issue. It all depends on how an individual weighs the rights of the mother against the rights of the unborn child. There is no "right" answer. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

12-04-2003, 08:11 AM	#41
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	hey, toad....i know this is off topic, but what is the 211.5 in your title about? __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

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12-03-2003, 04:21 PM	#32
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Alcohol ingested by adults and passed to developing kids is toxic. When the defects caused by alcohol were first studied, in the 80s I think, the thought was that malnutrition was the cause. But further study demonstrated the toxicity of alcohol. What's not know is if there is a safe level or even beneficial level- so, true, abstinence is recommended. Current studies I just googled are looking at light and moderate consumption, in human populations and also using primates and rats, to try and impose more environmental controls. So far the few Ive seen say that it appears even light (the rat), and moderate (the primate) consumption raises the occurance of the studied birth defects. There was also a genomic study that isolated a gene relationship to the effects, with various levels of alcohol. So maybe if you got a good genetic report card you could drink up? I dunno. With the risks we know right now, the responsible act is to put the glass down.

12-03-2003, 08:18 PM	#38
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	Personal Experience: Justin: Conception/Genetics: Both healthy parents, no major health issues other than my asthma and allergies. No alcohol, drugs or cigarettes consumed by either parent. Pregnancy: Homeless, eating mostly top ramen (cold), coconuts and tofu once or twice a day to survive. No medical care whatsoever. Not one doctor visit. Outcome: Justin is blind in one eye, has nystagmus and a host of other optical issues and degeneration. Will possibly be completely blind before age 30. Has been diagnosed with ADD. Bryan: Conception/Genetics: Prior to conception, the father smoked much weed, drank much alcohol, and smoked like a chimney. I was still "clean" throughout the entire pregnancy. Pregnancy: I ate so much crap, caffeine and junk food that I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. I occasionally (maybe 3 times the whole pregnancy) had a glass of wine. Outcome: Bryan had multiple ear infections prior to age 15 months and eventually had bilateral tubes. Due to the constant ear infections, his language was delayed because everything he heard was muffled. This snowball-effected into social/developmental delays and he's been in Special Education ever since. Slightly Autistic and it is possible he'll never live on his own. Piglet: Conception/Genetics: Both of us teetotalers. Especially Dave. Pregnancy: David forced me (no guns or knives, but yes, I was forced) to eat only healthy foods. I was not allowed to ingest anything containing caffeine or artificial sugars. Period. I managed to talk him into letting me have ice cream ONCE, and that was sugar free. Forced to exercise three times a week (just walking) for one hour. Outcome: A healthy little girl and 4.5 hour labor, start to finish. She's smart, quick to pick up new ideas and is very observant. She does have Hemoglobin-C, which is one step removed from Sickle-Cell, but doesn't affect her health. With genetic counseling, this won't be a problem with her children, either. This is a gift from Dave's genetics. So I have seen for myself the very real results of how well you care for yourself directly and fundamentally relates to your child.

12-04-2003, 07:46 AM	#40
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	BTW, weed is likely safe during early pregnancy! Cannabinoids are similar to a brain chemical produced by the body itself, and will cross the placenta, but only affect receptors of the brain that the fetus doesn't even have until about the 5th or 6th month. facinated by this kind of thing

12-04-2003, 08:26 AM	#42
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It's my weight. It was headed downward for a long while but it's stuck for some reason such as the t-giving holiday.

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