Ohio lethal injection takes 2 hours, 10 tries - Page 3

Flint · 05-28-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It has nothing to do with revenge, payback, even the score or balancing the scale.

When the courts have determined that a person is not, and will not, be allowed back into society because they pose a danger to the population, then they are separated from society permanently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Does it really make that much difference to them to be in maximum security?
What about the ones that say, "Yeah, I did it and would rather die then be locked up. Would you honor their wishes?

These questions appear to deviate from the stated goal of separating them from society, and enter the realm of execution as punishment.

I don't know what their preference would be, however I do know that if we choose to execute individuals based on the outcome of a system that isn't 100% infallible, then there will be some percentage of innocent people wrongly executed by the state, with our consent. Can you disagree?

Either we can ignore that reality, or we can state that it is acceptable as a trade-off for something. What that "something" is is what I am asking you.

What is the price of one innocent human life? What can we get in return for knowingly executing an anonymous human being, that will make it okay?

You must know the answer, since you support doing so.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-29-2007, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

These questions appear to deviate from the stated goal of separating them from society, and enter the realm of execution as punishment.

Not at all, just a more practical way than locking them up with the related hassles for the next 40/50/60 years. Nothing to do with being punitive.

Quote:

I don't know what their preference would be, however I do know that if we choose to execute individuals based on the outcome of a system that isn't 100% infallible, then there will be some percentage of innocent people wrongly executed by the state, with our consent. Can you disagree?

Either we can ignore that reality, or we can state that it is acceptable as a trade-off for something. What that "something" is is what I am asking you.

What is the price of one innocent human life? What can we get in return for knowingly executing an anonymous human being, that will make it okay?

You must know the answer, since you support doing so.

There's no perfect system. How many people did your hospital kill last year? Did the hospital close because they might kill someone? At least stop all elective procedures. Should we replace all stairs with ramps so those thousands of people don't die? Damn near anything we do, including getting out of bed is statistically more dangerous, than the risk of being falsely executed.

Remember the alternative is not fields of clover and bucolic afternoons, it's being Big Bubba's bitch for the rest of their life.

jinx · 05-28-2007, 05:19 PM

Ok. Let's say we don't execute any murderers, becuase as you pointed out, the state makes unacceptable mistakes - what do we do with them?

Flint · 05-28-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

Ok. Let's say we don't execute any murderers, becuase as you pointed out, the state makes unacceptable mistakes - what do we do with them?

As regards the question of whether capital punishment is morally justified, that is a non sequitur.

...unless "inconvenience" is a justification for the state-sanctioned execution of innocent human beings.

busterb · 05-28-2007, 05:51 PM

Yeah. But, but. the bible says.

05-28-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busterb

Yeah. But, but. the bible says.

Funny, as always, two different things and neither of them matter any more than what Sponge Bob says.

Flint · 05-28-2007, 06:53 PM

The courts are not 100% perfect, so some percentage of the people we execute will be innocent.

Simple question: what do we gain to justify the death of those innocents? What is "worth" an innocent death?

xoxoxoBruce · 05-28-2007, 07:51 PM

Does it really make that much difference to them to be in maximum security?
What about the ones that say, "Yeah, I did it and would rather die then be locked up. Would you honor their wishes?

Ibby · 05-28-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What about the ones that say, "Yeah, I did it and would rather die then be locked up. Would you honor their wishes?

Mailer, Executioner's Song...

A little long, but a WONDERFUL book.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-30-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Does it really make that much difference to them to be in maximum security?
What about the ones that say, "Yeah, I did it and would rather die then be locked up. Would you honor their wishes?

You could slip them a razor and then later wonder where it came from....

TheMercenary · 05-28-2007, 09:04 PM

Poor fella, should have had 20 false starts and each time told him, "fake!", "Ok, not really, we are going to kill you", "fake!", "well not this time." "Fake!"

Over and over till you spring it on him.

05-28-2007, 09:53 PM

Justice is not vengeance. Vengeance is not justice.

Flint · 05-28-2007, 10:01 PM

Oh, and the ones that asked to be killed would be requesting a "suicide by state" - a variation of "suicide by cop" that differs by being completely avoidable (not a split-second reaction). It really has nothing whatsoever to do with this debate, unless we are discussing killing as punishment.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-28-2007, 11:54 PM

Of course it does. You said you don't want executions because we might fry an innocent person, if I understand your position.

So, I asked about situation where making a mistake is not an issue. If you still don't want to execute, even though he requested it, then your argument is not the accidental frying an innocent. It's personal belief, moral position, whatever, it's how you feel.

Flint · 05-29-2007, 07:35 PM

Explain specifically how you disagree. Elaborate at will. Go ahead. Shoot me down.

05-28-2007, 05:19 PM	#3
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Ok. Let's say we don't execute any murderers, becuase as you pointed out, the state makes unacceptable mistakes - what do we do with them? __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

05-28-2007, 05:51 PM	#5
busterb NSABFD Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: MS. usa Posts: 3,908	Yeah. But, but. the bible says. __________________ I've haven't left very deep footprints in the sands of time. But, boy I've left a bunch.

05-28-2007, 06:53 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The courts are not 100% perfect, so some percentage of the people we execute will be innocent. Simple question: what do we gain to justify the death of those innocents? What is "worth" an innocent death? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

05-28-2007, 07:51 PM	#8
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Does it really make that much difference to them to be in maximum security? What about the ones that say, "Yeah, I did it and would rather die then be locked up. Would you honor their wishes? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-28-2007, 09:04 PM	#11
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Poor fella, should have had 20 false starts and each time told him, "fake!", "Ok, not really, we are going to kill you", "fake!", "well not this time." "Fake!" Over and over till you spring it on him. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

05-28-2007, 09:53 PM	#12
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Justice is not vengeance. Vengeance is not justice.

05-28-2007, 10:01 PM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Oh, and the ones that asked to be killed would be requesting a "suicide by state" - a variation of "suicide by cop" that differs by being completely avoidable (not a split-second reaction). It really has nothing whatsoever to do with this debate, unless we are discussing killing as punishment. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 05-28-2007 at 10:07 PM.

05-28-2007, 11:54 PM	#14
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Of course it does. You said you don't want executions because we might fry an innocent person, if I understand your position. So, I asked about situation where making a mistake is not an issue. If you still don't want to execute, even though he requested it, then your argument is not the accidental frying an innocent. It's personal belief, moral position, whatever, it's how you feel. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-29-2007, 07:35 PM	#15
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Explain specifically how you disagree. Elaborate at will. Go ahead. Shoot me down. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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