oh! youre a feminist? how cute!

[DanaC]

*grins*

[yesman065]

Oh my no, I never said anything like that at all - please don't put words in my mouth. I said that this inequality was NOT the fault of the Catholic church - thats all, nothing more.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Oh my no, I never said anything like that at all - please don't put words in my mouth. I said that this inequality was NOT the fault of the Catholic church - thats all, nothing more.

youre right, i did put words in your mouth. for that i apologise. however, given the history and recent actions of the church, i stand by what i said previously. in christianity, the church has undoubtedly kept women down and erm .... out ... in the kitchen. if thats where a woman [i]chooses[i] to be, thats fine and dandy. if its not, its oppression.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

youre right, i did put words in your mouth. for that i apologise. however, given the history and recent actions of the church, i stand by what i said previously. in christianity, the church has undoubtedly kept women down and erm .... out ... in the kitchen. if thats where a woman [i]chooses[i] to be, thats fine and dandy. if its not, its oppression.

What church is that?

[Phil]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What church is that?

christian, muslim, jewish etc ... choose one. theyre all pretty much the same., imo.


"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1
"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)






The severe and shameful oppression of women and their contributions to society has been hidden throughout the world or at best a rarely or untold story. The deaths of accused witches (heretics) is a direct result of this oppression and reached it’s peak from 1200 to 1800A.D. varying in range from 100,000 to 9 million persons but, the percentage of women killed, during this time, is consistent in all references. Eighty percent of the people accused, tortured, and burned during the witch hunts were women! There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times. Europe witnessed this massive hunt, torture and killing of women and men who were also viewed as pagan/heretics. The pagans refused to give up their matrilineal culture and practices. Their very lives of planting and harvesting depended on it. The witch hunts became a useful vehicle as an attempt to stamp out the ancient pagan traditions built around the worship of the Goddess and Gods. “If life is inherently evil, the church fathers needed someone to blame; and who better to blame than woman, who creates life from her own body? Living women, also, can be publicly punished, as the iconic and illusory Devil can never be.” 2 Plus the church had a long tradition of taking over the most celebrated pagan holidays and began to call them Christian to gain the support of the people of the land. The church hijacked the yearly pagan celebration of the Sun and made it the celebration of the son now called Christmas.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1 .

Roman Catholic theologian

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

Musings of a Jewish philosopher, 200/250 years BC.

This is the basis of the oppression of women?

The severe and shameful oppression of women and their contributions to society has been hidden throughout the world or at best a rarely or untold story. The deaths of accused witches (heretics) is a direct result of this oppression and reached it’s peak from 1200 to 1800A.D. varying in range from 100,000 to 9 million persons but, the percentage of women killed, during this time, is consistent in all references. Eighty percent of the people accused, tortured, and burned during the witch hunts were women!

How were these women accused? Who pointed the finger and called them witches? Women, in most cases. For reasons of their own, most likely catty, insignificant reasons, women hurled accusations at each other providing fuel for the trials.

There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times.

True, but this is sociological, not theological.

Europe witnessed this massive hunt, torture and killing of women and men who were also viewed as pagan/heretics. The pagans refused to give up their matrilineal culture and practices. Their very lives of planting and harvesting depended on it. The witch hunts became a useful vehicle as an attempt to stamp out the ancient pagan traditions built around the worship of the Goddess and Gods. “If life is inherently evil, the church fathers needed someone to blame; and who better to blame than woman, who creates life from her own body? Living women, also, can be publicly punished, as the iconic and illusory Devil can never be.” 2 Plus the church had a long tradition of taking over the most celebrated pagan holidays and began to call them Christian to gain the support of the people of the land. The church hijacked the yearly pagan celebration of the Sun and made it the celebration of the son now called Christmas.

You're mixing apples and oranges and plums and grapes. Not every US against THEM, that happened in history is the responsibility of the church just because they were present. We have chaplains in the military but that doesn't make the church responsible for wars we fight. Yes, I know, they started plenty of their own wars..... that doesn't negate my point.

Speaking of war, the battle of the sexes predates all the religions. Men had been fighting the battle of the sexes for thousands of years, because women don't want men to do what they want to do.
Religions, founded by men, were another male dominated organization, but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness. Women "civilized" the frontiers, smoothed the cultural rough edges and generally made men behave, by way of the church, because it was the only organization they were allowed to join, the only place they were allowed to congregate and conspire.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Phil

There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times.

I doubt this is provable, especially the "pre-Paleolithic" part. I think whoever told you that can't prove it either, and was talking... stuff.

Really, this language sounds like that burgher in Cabaret who said to Michael York's character, "It iss an established fact that zere iss a conspiracy of Jews..." I'd stay suspicious as hell of this, and of much of the rest of the paragraph I took this from.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

in christianity, the church has undoubtedly kept women down and erm .... out ... in the kitchen.

Originally Posted by Bruce

What church is that?

Originally Posted by Phil

christian, muslim, jewish etc ... choose one. theyre all pretty much the same., imo.

You said "in christianity, the church", I want to know which church?

[yesman065]

In fact I think I clearly stated that "since those rules no longer apply that the situation must and has changed." Please don't misconstrue what I meant. If it was unclear I apologize.

[DanaC]

Thats a nice distinction.

Unfortunately, after the fights of the 70s and 80s, we ended up in a situation (I think this has settled down again into something more balanced though) where women who chose to do exactly that felt (and possibly were) looked down on by other women.

[yesman065]

I think women are now in a situation where they have to get an education and join the workforce. To me that leaves the most important task of raising their children, our future generations, to hired help. IMHO - that sucks. Thats just my 2 cents though. Typically, but NOT ALWAYS, women are far better at that than their male counterparts.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by yesman065

I think women are now in a situation where they have to get an education and join the workforce.

That's false. They don't have to do anything. They are now in a situation where they can choose. Much of our society promotes materialism, so people feel they need both parents working to keep up with the Joneses, but if you lower your standard of living, you can survive on one income.

[DanaC]

Also, men who stay at home with the children usually do a bang up job.
My brother and his wife share the task pretty much equally. Now that she's a qualified nurse, he's scaled down his working day in order to take account of the girls' needs.

They are very well brought ujp girls and happy. They have a close relationship with both parents. Not every woman who chooses to have a career leaves their children with the help.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Also, men who stay at home with the children usually do a bang up job.

Thank you.
My girls rock, whether that's my doing or not *shrug*.

Although some feminists really get my goat, they've helped free us all. Pete and I were able to choose to have her work for good pay while I did the kid/house stuff instead of her staying home and trying to stretch my tiny paychecks. Now I get to see what women used to have to go through trying to get their careers back on track. The good news is, I'm better prepared to do the work now.

[DanaC]

I think women are now in a situation where they have to get an education and join the workforce

This got past me on first reading. Get an education? No wonder so many kids are screwed up if their mothers are selfishly educating themselves instead of raising their babies. Women are so much better at raising babies than men, they should leave the education to men.