City in Texas ...to keep out illegal immigrants,

[tw]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

My point was that a country with no cohesive culture and an emphasis on its residents thinking of themselves as belonging to some other society first does not function well as a nation.

And yet that was America for most of the 20th Century. Why do you think every city has a little Italy, a China town, etc? Why do you think ethnic groups tended towards same jobs - Irish cops? America was very ethnically divided and yet still functioned as one nation, indivisible, etc.

We are beginning to see cultural losses. Deep southern drawls and the New England Yankee accent (ie in John Kennedy's speeches) are significantly diminished. Somehow we forget how ethnically and culturally divided and yet so united was this nation called America even 60 years ago. Part of the American experience was discovering someone so culturally different - and yet he was also another of us.

The abbreviation for America is US - the we who are so different.

There is one factor though. Back then, the need for English was considered necessary to be an American. We have another problem. The grandchildren sometimes cannot talk to the grandparents. Political hype associated with why all should speak English gets lost when delivered to the immigrant. A grandparent who wants to be able to talk to his own grandkids - he should appreciate that consequence of not learning English.

Such more important facts are often lost when others worry about this 'them and us' attitude in America.

One final problem directly traceable to an America that now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally. Those immigrants do not come with the attitude of staying. Why would they? They are not welcome. That is clear. Those immigrants who end up staying are basically told, "Don't bother learning English. You are not staying." Simply by increasing the 29,000 per year number to 2 million per year means that person will need to speak English. He is staying. He need not hide in an only Spanish community. He is now coming to America for the same reasons so many did in 1900s.

Why should they even bother to speak English when they must hide in Spanish neighborhoods - when they will never be welcome? Just another problem created by the 'we fear all immigrant' attitudes.

American that was united was never so homogenous. Why should we expect all to conform to one culture? That was never America before.

[orthodoc]

Maybe 'cohesive culture' wasn't a very accurate term for me to use ... I was thinking more of a cohesive vision, a common idea, and a commitment to the new country. That doesn't preclude retaining aspects of one's former culture, it just means not keeping one's former country first in one's loyalty and commitment. I agree that a country can benefit greatly from the positive contributions of other cultures.

I have no idea why you think that 'America ... now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally'. The first clause isn't true and the second doesn't make sense. America welcomes legal immigrants and has the right to enforce her own laws.

[tw]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

I have no idea why you think that 'America ... now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally'.

Maybe because we make immigration so difficult that legal immigration takes a year plus. Maybe because even science conferences are leaving the US because just to get papers to participate - 3 months - often longer. We so fear foreigners that universities now suffer something like a 20% reduction is good students. We now fear as if that will solve the problem - that the administration quashed attempt after attempt to stop what became known as 11 September. We did not address the problem - 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

We need 1.8 million just to harvest the crops. We so fear immigrants as to only permit 29,000 in legally.

It is probably coincidence. But now that farms are so short of qualified (immigrant) labor, they now have E Coli problems? Probably only coincidence - or maybe god sending a message to the rest of us who don't know how much we now fear all foreigners. Even the Dubai Ports deal had nothing to do with security. That too is fear even of our closest allies.

Originally Posted by tw

And yet that was America for most of the 20th Century. Why do you think every city has a little Italy, a China town, etc? Why do you think ethnic groups tended towards same jobs - Irish cops? America was very ethnically divided and yet still functioned as one nation, indivisible, etc.

We are beginning to see cultural losses. Deep southern drawls and the New England Yankee accent (ie in John Kennedy's speeches) are significantly diminished. Somehow we forget how ethnically and culturally divided and yet so united was this nation called America even 60 years ago. Part of the American experience was discovering someone so culturally different - and yet he was also another of us.

The abbreviation for America is US - the we who are so different.

There is one factor though. Back then, the need for English was considered necessary to be an American. We have another problem. The grandchildren sometimes cannot talk to the grandparents. Political hype associated with why all should speak English gets lost when delivered to the immigrant. A grandparent who wants to be able to talk to his own grandkids - he should appreciate that consequence of not learning English.

Such more important facts are often lost when others worry about this 'them and us' attitude in America.

One final problem directly traceable to an America that now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally. Those immigrants do not come with the attitude of staying. Why would they? They are not welcome. That is clear. Those immigrants who end up staying are basically told, "Don't bother learning English. You are not staying." Simply by increasing the 29,000 per year number to 2 million per year means that person will need to speak English. He is staying. He need not hide in an only Spanish community. He is now coming to America for the same reasons so many did in 1900s.

Why should they even bother to speak English when they must hide in Spanish neighborhoods - when they will never be welcome? Just another problem created by the 'we fear all immigrant' attitudes.

American that was united was never so homogenous. Why should we expect all to conform to one culture? That was never America before.

Bullshit, I have uncles and an aunt that are from Hispanic countries that came here legally, learned to speak English (one is a teacher and still in college) and none live in Spanish/or immigrant communities. My cousins all speak Spanish and English, retaining their heritage, while loving their nation and being raised American patriots. It takes patience and work, that is all.
Farms choose to hire illegals... they do not have to. This is something I know about.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Probably only coincidence - or maybe god sending a message to the rest of us who don't know how much we now fear all foreigners.

Originally Posted by tw

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

Proof positive.

orthodoc says "we" as in we the people. tw says "we" as in the nation/legislature/bureaucrats/laws. tw's "we" doesn't always jibe with the feelings or wishes of orthodoc's "we".

In the case of the laws, bureaucrats are resistant to change, any change, and there hasn't been an impetus to update immigration laws as the problem was being circumvented by ignoring the law. The bureaucrats like that just fine because that means no work for them.
But the result of that attitude is they have lost control of the very reasons there are laws in the first place.

Aside but pertinant.... My personal observation is that Hispanics, especially the young men, are proud bordering on arrogant....very macho, and tend to be in your face with their heritage. That's annoying to us old farts and colors our view of the Hispanic community, right or wrongly.

[yesman065]

Our country was founded with immigrants. WE are all decedents of immigrants. As a society we must have some commonalities to flourish and yet revel in our differences - thats what makes this country so great! The idea that everyone already here has to conform to their, the immigrants, customs or languages - or whatever is counterproductive and nonsensical. They can, and should, embrace their own uniqueness, but need to understand that they are coming here! And in their desire to come here there are some requirements - laws, taxes and learning to speak, read and write our language. I welcome them just as my ancestors were welcomed, but you gotta pay a price. After all, its a priveledge - not a right.