Men Abortion and Choice - Page 27

xoxoxoBruce · 08-22-2007, 05:14 AM

Fair point.

yesman065 · 08-22-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

yes indeed. But the point that Yesman had raised was the fact that he has encountered a lot of men who don't want to step up and he seemed disgusted that enough men don't want to support their children that it requires a whole department to deal with it. My point was merely that it would be unfair to judge men harshly compared to women on this, given that women get a bunch of hormonal help when the pregnancy starts.

Or moreso - the department that is supposed to be handling and manging the support cases gets completely overwhelmed dealing with these losers to the point that NOTHING seems to get done. There are 4 caseworkers available at 8:00 am and there are at least 30 -40 people waiting in the lobby to see them, with more literally pouring in as the day goes on. These caseworkers seem to be trying their best, but the workload they face is staggering and the mental grind they must entail over days, weeks and months is staggering.

Virtually all of the people there are women, most with young children, and they are all there for the same reason - to get money from someone else - be it the system or an accused "deadbeat dad."

When in court I have seen the guys with their ghetto attire complete with $100+ sneakers blinging with decorative rings, necklaces and cellphones. They sit there disrespectfully slouched in front of the court with literally the same excuses time after time. "Yeah I'll pay this much more a month or that much next time or I ain't got no more money."

They have money for the clothes and the jewelry and the cellphones, yet nothing left for their children? Yeah I get why things are so screwed up with this system - This scum is reproducing much faster and in larger numbers than respectful people who honor their commitments.

Whats the answer???

Happy Monkey · 08-22-2007, 12:50 PM

Or they have moral objections to abortion...

Shawnee123 · 08-22-2007, 12:57 PM

The other side to this, 9th, is that believing in the right for a woman to choose abortion, you must also believe in the right of the woman to choose to carry that child to term, no matter if anyone thinks it's irresponsible for any reason, no matter if she conjugated with a low-life, no matter any social issues anyone other than that woman has.

Clodfobble · 08-22-2007, 12:59 PM

Yes, but she should also be prepared to take the responsibility for her decision, which may include the lack of the father.

Shawnee123 · 08-22-2007, 01:01 PM

Absolutely...but I'm saying that it isn't for Joe Schmo on the street to say she should have aborted. Believing in choice is believing in choice. You can't have it both ways.

Spexxvet · 08-22-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Absolutely...but I'm saying that it isn't for Joe Schmo on the street to say she should have aborted. Believing in choice is believing in choice. You can't have it both ways.

Yes I can't. I mean no I can.

DanaC · 08-22-2007, 02:45 PM

Well said.

Aliantha · 08-22-2007, 04:54 PM

I have to say that the Child Support Agency is good for my children. Their father is very bad at stepping up to his responsibility. Every year when they do the assessment to see what he should pay, he quits his job then tells them that he can't pay because he doesn't have a job. They then say he only has to pay the minimum which is about $27/month. The unfortunate thing for him is that they're now going back to all the old records and have caluculated a huge debt for him.

Personally, I don't care if he pays or not, other than the fact that on the one hand he claims to love his kids, but on the other, he's quite happy to let someone else pay all their every day expenses.

I didn't think he was a deadbeat when I met him. I didn't think he was a deadbeat when we fell pregnant. In fact, it wasn't till I was 7 months pregnant and I found out he'd been having an affair with someone else and then quit his job that I had the first realization. We tried to work it out. Had our second son, but I found out that he was still up to his same tricks and they just got worse.

Sometimes you just don't know what people are going to do, no matter how well you think you know them. Knowing what I know now, I would never have allowed myself to fall pregnant to him, but it's amazing how hindsight gives you 20 20 vision.

Pie · 08-22-2007, 05:11 PM

Another issue is that male or female, the people with the worst impulse control and planning skills are the ones who "forget" the birth control or use less reliable methods.
These are also likely to be the people who are least capable of adequately caring for the new entity they've created. Thus, the cycle continues

9th Engineer · 08-22-2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

The other side to this, 9th, is that believing in the right for a woman to choose abortion, you must also believe in the right of the woman to choose to carry that child to term, no matter if anyone thinks it's irresponsible for any reason, no matter if she conjugated with a low-life, no matter any social issues anyone other than that woman has.

It's not the act of choosing that's important, here or really in anything else. It's the opportunity to take the actions necessary to secure the best possible outcome. Abortion is simply a convenience, not something sacred. Also, the language about having to affirm a womans choice by telling her she's doing the right thing no matter what is bullshit. For that choice I expect her to know her own abilities and situation and act accordingly. There's no checklist for this, some women may be able to care for a child in circumstances where others crumble, but she has 9 months to figure that out. Situations that change after birth are one thing, but if she has the baby knowing full well that she can't care for it properly then she's the one who's mocking her right to choose.

Shawnee123 · 08-24-2007, 08:05 AM

I disagree. A choice is just that, a choice. Too many people think that pro-choice means you can choose to abort. Not believing that it also includes the right to choose to carry to term is short-sighted, and negates the whole right to choose.

Quote:

For that choice I expect her to know her own abilities and situation and act accordingly.

Ahh, if everyone knew themselves so well, if these choices were easy. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way.

Spexxvet · 08-24-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I disagree. A choice is just that, a choice. Too many people think that pro-choice means you can choose to abort. Not believing that it also includes the right to choose to carry to term is short-sighted, and negates the whole right to choose.
...

Wait.... if you are pro-choice, it's not MANDATORY to have an abortion, if you get pregnant? Wow, what a concept!

Shawnee123 · 08-24-2007, 01:42 PM

Heeeheeee, Spexx!

yesman065 · 08-24-2007, 06:31 PM

That is not what I read in his post - I think he meant that there are women who think of the man as no more than a sperm donor. In some cases, I don't know how many, he is absolutely right. It is far more "socially acceptable" for an unmarried woman to have a child or children, than it used to be.

08-22-2007, 05:14 AM	#1
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Fair point. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-22-2007, 12:50 PM	#3
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Or they have moral objections to abortion... __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

08-22-2007, 12:57 PM	#4
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	The other side to this, 9th, is that believing in the right for a woman to choose abortion, you must also believe in the right of the woman to choose to carry that child to term, no matter if anyone thinks it's irresponsible for any reason, no matter if she conjugated with a low-life, no matter any social issues anyone other than that woman has. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

08-22-2007, 01:01 PM	#6
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Absolutely...but I'm saying that it isn't for Joe Schmo on the street to say she should have aborted. Believing in choice is believing in choice. You can't have it both ways. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

08-22-2007, 04:54 PM	#9
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I have to say that the Child Support Agency is good for my children. Their father is very bad at stepping up to his responsibility. Every year when they do the assessment to see what he should pay, he quits his job then tells them that he can't pay because he doesn't have a job. They then say he only has to pay the minimum which is about $27/month. The unfortunate thing for him is that they're now going back to all the old records and have caluculated a huge debt for him. Personally, I don't care if he pays or not, other than the fact that on the one hand he claims to love his kids, but on the other, he's quite happy to let someone else pay all their every day expenses. I didn't think he was a deadbeat when I met him. I didn't think he was a deadbeat when we fell pregnant. In fact, it wasn't till I was 7 months pregnant and I found out he'd been having an affair with someone else and then quit his job that I had the first realization. We tried to work it out. Had our second son, but I found out that he was still up to his same tricks and they just got worse. Sometimes you just don't know what people are going to do, no matter how well you think you know them. Knowing what I know now, I would never have allowed myself to fall pregnant to him, but it's amazing how hindsight gives you 20 20 vision. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

08-22-2007, 12:59 PM	#5
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Yes, but she should also be prepared to take the responsibility for her decision, which may include the lack of the father.

08-22-2007, 02:45 PM	#8
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Well said.

08-22-2007, 05:11 PM	#10
Pie Gone and done Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 4,808	Another issue is that male or female, the people with the worst impulse control and planning skills are the ones who "forget" the birth control or use less reliable methods. These are also likely to be the people who are least capable of adequately caring for the new entity they've created. Thus, the cycle continues __________________ per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not.

08-24-2007, 01:42 PM	#14
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Heeeheeee, Spexx! __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

08-24-2007, 06:31 PM	#15
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	That is not what I read in his post - I think he meant that there are women who think of the man as no more than a sperm donor. In some cases, I don't know how many, he is absolutely right. It is far more "socially acceptable" for an unmarried woman to have a child or children, than it used to be. Last edited by yesman065; 08-24-2007 at 06:42 PM.

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