Obama's first failed appointment

[sugarpop]

I don't understand why they wouldn't have been able to take deductions on their taxes since they sold the house for less than what it was worth. That is a loss. Aren't you supposed to be able to claim losses on your taxes? And the charitable contributions, they have to have a letter? I thought a receipt would do.

The friggin' tax laws are so complicated in this country, it doesn't surprise me at all that so many people are having trouble with that part of the confirmations.

[lookout123]

The friggin' tax laws are so complicated in this country, it doesn't surprise me at all that so many people are having trouble with that part of the confirmations.

And yet you're all convinced an easy to understand flat tax would hurt the poor and working classes.

Originally Posted by lookout123

And yet you're all convinced an easy to understand flat tax would hurt the poor and working classes.

An "easy to understand" flat tax is absolutely regressive...hurting the poor and working class far more than higher income groups with far greater disposal income.

And the more "complicated" you make it to counteract that inherent unfairness, the higher the tax rate will need to be just to generate enough revenue to pay for basic national needs.

SO, the current tax system is unfair because it is progressive and the rich pay a greater share of their income.

A flat tax is unfair because it is regressive and the poor and working class pay a greater share of their income.

Which group should pay that greater share of their income.....the group that relies on a large portion of its income to meet basic needs and perhaps a few luxuries or the group with much greater disposable income?

The answer is easy to me.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

An "easy to understand" flat tax is absolutely regressive...hurting the poor and working class far more than higher income groups with far greater disposal income.

And the more "complicated" you make it to counteract that inherent unfairness, the higher the tax rate will need to be just to generate enough revenue to pay for basic national needs.

SO, the current tax system is unfair because it is progressive and the rich pay a greater share of their income.

A flat tax is unfair because it is regressive and the poor and working class pay a greater share of their income.

great. show us the numbers from an un-biased source.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

great. show us the numbers from an un-biased source.

Consider the source to be the Univeristy of Common Sense.

There are two general approaches to the flat tax - tax on sales or tax on wages.

A flat sales tax of approx. 25% would have a more adverse impact on the dispoasl income of a person of $30,000 income as opposed to $3 million income - common sense.

A flat tax on wages generally excludes non wage income (capital gains) and would have a more adverse impact on the disposal income of a person making $30,000 (with nearly all of it from wages) as opposed to a person making $ 3million (with a large portion excluided from the tax as non-wage ,capital gains) - common sense

I share the opinoin of that capitalist that the free market guys always love to point to when it comes to deregulation, but not taxes - Adam Smith:

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion....

But I accept that "fairness" is in the eye of the beholder and we willl never agree on this one.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by lookout123

And yet you're all convinced an easy to understand flat tax would hurt the poor and working classes.

Of course it would.

[sugarpop]

It would, because it favors the wealthier classes.

[lookout123]

Bullshit. You can't rest your flag on the idea that the current system favors the wealthy because of all the deductions and tax shelters which help them to pay a lower than expected tax rate AND say that a zero deduction flat tax also favors them.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Gosh guys, isn't there a solution in between?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Bullshit. You can't rest your flag on the idea that the current system favors the wealthy because of all the deductions and tax shelters which help them to pay a lower than expected tax rate AND say that a zero deduction flat tax also favors them.

The current tax system is unfair because rich people get away with paying less than they should, through deductions and shelters, etc..

The flat tax would be unfair because the middle class would be paying more than they are now, and rich people would be paying less (in some cases).

The only fair system is a graduated system, where taxes increase as income increases. As you earn more, you can afford to pay more. What's not to understand about that? Seems simple enough to me. They just need to get rid of all the ways rich people get out of paying.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

The only fair system is a graduated system, where taxes increase as income increases.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The only fair system is where everyone pays the same and additionally there should be a tax on all purchases.

There is no such thing as a "fair" system because of how subjective fair is.

Maybe the government should just play the father figure by taking everyone's money away then yell "Happy now, now its fair". It worked for North Korea...you don't hear any of them complaining about the tax setup.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Maybe the government should just play the father figure by taking everyone's money away then yell "Happy now, now its fair".

Some think thats where we are headed anyway :tinfoil

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

There is no such thing as a "fair" system because of how subjective fair is.

True.

But the reality is there has never been much support for a flat tax.

Kemp made it a core component of his campaign when he ran for Pres in '88; as did Forbes in '00 and Huckabee last year....with little success.

Any Congressional proposal for a flat tax over the last 20+ years has died in committee, regardless of the party in power.

A poll ( ) I saw this morning:

Almost three-quarters of Americans think it is a good idea to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000 per year, according to the latest CBS News/New York Times poll.

In fact, two-thirds of Americans think the tax code should be changed so that middle-class Americans pay less than they do now, while "upper income" people pay more.

Poll: 74 Percent Support Higher Taxes On The Rich

Whether a flat tax is "fair" or not or has merits or not, the political reality is that while most Americans would like to see tax simplification, what a flat tax doesnt have is very much public support.

[DanaC]

Now you're just being ridiculous Bruce :P

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You directly suggested to me that I fudge my taxes to save money.

Originally Posted by classicman

When did I do that?

It was here. I kind of called you on it at the time too (post 1393,) because that was when the news stories about nominees owing back taxes were in full swing, and you had expressed frustration over it several times.