On Belief, Knowledge, and Justification - Page 2

Beestie · 02-22-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You haven't proven I live in the Philly area. I mean, I *do*, but you haven't proven anything. You've taken a set of really obvious signs that point to it and induced that I do.

I think he deduced that you live in Philly.

smoothmoniker · 02-22-2005, 11:31 AM

Beast, I'm going to come back and hit your post a little later today, because you said some interesting stuff that I want to think about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm happy to follow your path no matter where you take us sm. I love this stuff!

In preparation I have reminded myself of the difference between deduction and induction, because I'm pretty sure the fuzz factor there is a problem.

You haven't proven I live in the Philly area. I mean, I *do*, but you haven't proven anything. You've taken a set of really obvious signs that point to it and induced that I do. The signs sure look obvious. But it's still an induction, not a deduction. And now if you accept that I live in the Philly area as fact, and build other deductions and inductions on TOP of that fact, you might be building your understanding of reality on a house of cards.

I might be so fascinated by Philly (hey, it's possible) that I want to be there and am lying about the whole thing. But we can probably get to a deduction that I live in the Philly area. It's totally provable, because if you want to, you can come here and see it.

I don't think this kind of statement is inductive or deductive; I haven't moved from a sample to a group, or from a group to a sample. I'm inferring - moving from a collection of data to a likely conclusion.

I'm more interested in the state of my belief prior to verification. True, I could get on a plane, come visit you, get my bad self all sloppy up with cheesesteak, but prior to me actually doing that, I still have a justified true belief that you live in Philly. The point where we might disagree is that I think I'm able to call this belief "knowledge" in the normal sense. I have enough justification for my true belief that I can say "I *know* that UT lives in Philly.

Undertoad · 02-22-2005, 10:36 AM

And Clod, I understand your point totally. In the end we pretty much just try to live out our lives and make a decent go of it. It's like astronomers studying the physical nature of the universe; what they find out there, working out whether the universe is 13 billion years old or only 12, won't make as much difference in our own lives as whether we decide to have a donut for dinner. On the other hand, our natural curiousity as humans won't let some of us let these questions go. And I swear there is a point to it; we need to do the heavy lifting sometimes to get to the next level.

Clodfobble · 02-22-2005, 10:56 AM

Nah, if he had deduced it, he would have had to start out with some absolute statement, such as "all people named Tony live in Philly." Deduction is absolutes applied to a specific situation, induction is matching specific cases against each other.

He induced it because he has no absolutes about UT or the type of people who always live in Philly, just a lot of evidence that matches up with other specific cases (people whom we do know live in Philly).

finding_nirvana · 03-08-2005, 07:20 AM

I do not know what this thread is about, but I did find it interesting for a moment. I lost interest when I found that I could not understand what the basis of the argument was in the first place. Nothing can come of this post, but I just felt like I had to say so

Beestie · 03-08-2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finding_nirvana

I do not know what this thread is about, but I did find it interesting for a moment. I lost interest when I found that I could not understand what the basis of the argument was in the first place. Nothing can come of this post, but I just felt like I had to say so

finding or looking for?

finding_nirvana · 03-08-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

finding or looking for?

I'm not sure what you are asking me, but all I was doing was placing a comment on this thread.

smoothmoniker · 03-08-2005, 10:41 AM

sorry guys, there's a whole other part to my argument, this stuff is just background, but I've been slammed, and haven't had time to pull it together. I'll try to get it up later this week.

mrnoodle · 03-08-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I'm more interested in the state of my belief prior to verification. True, I could get on a plane, come visit you, get my bad self all sloppy up with cheesesteak, but prior to me actually doing that, I still have a justified true belief that you live in Philly. The point where we might disagree is that I think I'm able to call this belief "knowledge" in the normal sense. I have enough justification for my true belief that I can say "I *know* that UT lives in Philly.

My belief in the existence of UT can never be fully justified. There will always be some room for error, no matter how negligible. I can phly to philly, walk up the steps and ring the bell, and when UT answers, still not have "proof" that UT lives in Philly. Maybe this is someone pretending to be UT. Maybe I'm at the wrong house. Maybe he's just visiting. And what exactly is the definition of Undertoad? What is his core essence - not a physical body, which can conceivably be simulated, but the undeniable Undertoadness of Undertoad. How can I see it, verify its truth, and place it in Philly (if such a place even exists) to the point that absolutely NO unanswered questions remain? I can choose disbelief forever, based on the fact that not all factors can be simultaneously proven true.

So whether belief is justified is based entirely on personal interpretation. Your model accounts for absolute truth and falsity, but doesn't define what "good reason" is. Most importantly, it doesn't have a variable for "the price of tea in China", which is presumably the reason we're trying so hard to find this UT person.

Undertoad · 03-08-2005, 11:57 AM

It doesn't really matter to you whether I live in Philly (actually I live NEAR it which is a whole 'nother ball of wax). But it does matter to you whether or not the sandwich you just ate is not contaminated with food poisoning. So at some point you start to require better proof of things - or take it on, uh, some level of faith that the sandwich was OK?

Clodfobble · 03-08-2005, 12:28 PM

He's asking about your username, whether you think you're actually finding nirvana or if you're just looking for it blindly like most people.

finding_nirvana · 03-08-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

He's asking about your username, whether you think you're actually finding nirvana or if you're just looking for it blindly like most people.

Most likely what you have suggested, I am searching for that inner peace, nothing yet.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-08-2005, 06:57 PM

Everyone I've met who claimed to have found inner peace were obviously deluded. I guess it's mind over matter* and "fat, dumb and happy" has something going for it.

*If you don't mind...it don't matter.

03-08-2005, 10:41 AM	#8
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	sorry guys, there's a whole other part to my argument, this stuff is just background, but I've been slammed, and haven't had time to pull it together. I'll try to get it up later this week. __________________ to live and die in LA

03-08-2005, 06:57 PM	#13
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Everyone I've met who claimed to have found inner peace were obviously deluded. I guess it's mind over matter* and "fat, dumb and happy" has something going for it. *If you don't mind...it don't matter. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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02-22-2005, 10:36 AM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	And Clod, I understand your point totally. In the end we pretty much just try to live out our lives and make a decent go of it. It's like astronomers studying the physical nature of the universe; what they find out there, working out whether the universe is 13 billion years old or only 12, won't make as much difference in our own lives as whether we decide to have a donut for dinner. On the other hand, our natural curiousity as humans won't let some of us let these questions go. And I swear there is a point to it; we need to do the heavy lifting sometimes to get to the next level.

02-22-2005, 10:56 AM	#4
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Nah, if he had deduced it, he would have had to start out with some absolute statement, such as "all people named Tony live in Philly." Deduction is absolutes applied to a specific situation, induction is matching specific cases against each other. He induced it because he has no absolutes about UT or the type of people who always live in Philly, just a lot of evidence that matches up with other specific cases (people whom we do know live in Philly).

03-08-2005, 07:20 AM	#5
finding_nirvana Sibling of the Commonweal Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 16	I do not know what this thread is about, but I did find it interesting for a moment. I lost interest when I found that I could not understand what the basis of the argument was in the first place. Nothing can come of this post, but I just felt like I had to say so

03-08-2005, 11:57 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It doesn't really matter to you whether I live in Philly (actually I live NEAR it which is a whole 'nother ball of wax). But it does matter to you whether or not the sandwich you just ate is not contaminated with food poisoning. So at some point you start to require better proof of things - or take it on, uh, some level of faith that the sandwich was OK?

03-08-2005, 12:28 PM	#11
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	He's asking about your username, whether you think you're actually finding nirvana or if you're just looking for it blindly like most people.

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